The tough life of the 'hardened unemployed'

I can't agree that you're better off economically on the dole. As soon as you go down the route of 'bettering yourself', you're immediately burning bridges. If you work for and collect wealth, then you lose out on loads of social welfare entitlements. This is especially so for those at the very bottom of the heap, ie the self-employed.

At the end of it all, when you're in a nursing home, you'll be no better off than the person who never worked in their life.
Even at pension age, there's no difference.
 
Anyhow ,its almost midday,the sun is shining, I have some serious tanning and drinking to do..thats after Ive collected my ten kids children's allowance and buy a plasma for my free house.
After that Ive to sign on..phew ,Im exhausted just thinking about it all.
It would be easier to work. hehehe.
 
I have reason to come into contact with quite a few families who live like this. It's really a cycle, their own parents moved into council houses in the 80's they now have children of their own and move into a council house as well. They know nothing else, they have never witnessed their parents slogging and trying to pay a mortgage, they just know that you can get a house fairly handy if you have kids etc. They know the claims that you can make and they have a keen sense of how to survive without working.

My own husband was made unemployed months ago, he has worked all his life and never had to claim anything. I am now stuck trying to pay a mortgage, car loans etc on my own because we don't qualify for any help with mortgage etc due to the fact that I work over 29hrs a week. Look, point is I have learned to accept that although I have to slog very hard now and have little or no money left over for anything, I still wake up under a roof that is mine, I take great pride in going to work in a job that I love & I also take pride in the fact that I have contributed to the country and never made a claim, even if others have. Just because it is easy enough to get a council house, make a claim etc - it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do & I don't envy anybody who does! They are misguided, they believe that scamming the system is a much cleverer way to survive then working hard and contributing - more fool them!! I have a great sense of self worth and I wonder do these guys have the same??... I doubt it.... despite the bravado that you might see! So no, I will enjoy sitting in the sun on my weekends much more than I would during the week skipping off work - I'll know I've earned it at the weekend and can feel good cracking open a nice cold bottle of heineken whilst sitting in my own garden!
 
I don't envy people who live like this and I feel that they're losing out big time on the rewards of earning a living and paying your way. However, I really grudge the fact that part of my earnings are being used to support generations of people like this, because the system is so weak they just get away with it. At a time of full employment no one who wasn't suffering from an illness or disability should have been allowed to live on welfare yet many people did. I knew one young healthy reasonably well educated couple who just couldn't be bothered to work during the boom years and the state were supporting them and their two children.
 

It has been interesting coming on today (while the sun shines outside the office) to catch up on all the comments that have been added since I posted this thread.

I can assure the person that questioned me about the 22yr old getting a free house that its completely true. The only thing is, I am talking about NI in this example. I live close to the border and the example I witnessed yesterday is in the North. I know them fairly well through the said relative. But I am sure that the benefits in RoI are not far behind the North.

The same girl in question has been trying to have a baby since she was 18. She has had a prev miscarriage. Of course I am not saying that she tried to have a baby to get a free house, but I do believe that work has never been on her agenda for her life. And the father of her child does not work either, and again never has.

I do appreciate that these various people I met yesterday may have always found it hard to find a job, maybe through lack of education. But I do believe that many also have no interest in ever working, and thats something that needs to be addressed by the Gov. Surely paying them just to lie about all day doing nothing is not beneficial to them or us? I am a great believer that the unemployed could be required to do some sort of community work, even if its only a few hours a day.

And don't get me wrong, as I have no interest in living this lifestyle. At the end of the day I am far happier to have a job to go to every morning. OK so it does sometimes annoy me when I look at all the taxes I pay, but as many have said, I'd rather do that than sit around all day wasting my life.

But I have hghlighted a couple of points about that I think we need to look at.

- Never own your own property. Well the desire to "own your own property" has wrecked the lives of many wealthy and hard-working people in Ireland. So many people that might have saved well and worked hard are now so much in negative equity that they may never get out of debt. These folk I mention will not have suffered the same way.

- Never live in a nice area. Well I bought a house in what was a nice area. The street is now home to an unemployed couple (not recently unemplyed but those that simply don't work) with 6 children who generally cause a fair bit of trouble. Rough calculations suggest this family is lifting €3000 per month off this bankrupt state whilst putting next to nothing back. This is the 'nice area' that I pay a mortgage every month to live in.
 
OK so it does sometimes annoy me when I look at all the taxes I pay, but as many have said, I'd rather do that than sit around all day wasting my life.
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I far, far more resent the taxes we are all paying and are going to pay for the governments dire mismanagement of the economy.
Wait until we see the final bill for nama and the bank/FF bailouts.

That's what makes me sick. TDs are far worse than the people you mention.
 

+1 So sad. When you look at it this way, do the kids really have a chance? And if they do they are facing an uphill slog to compete / catch up to other kids where education has always been on the agenda at home. I read Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers recently, there is an interesting chapter about children from poorer backgrounds and whether they can catch up to middle class kids by intensive schooling. Answer - when they were at school they caught up (better test results) but after the summer holidays they were behind again.
 

All well and good but on a sunny day is it not normal to think as the OP did? Thats all I'm saying. We work and pay our way, I don't get any great pleasure from my current job and the fact that I'm paying my own way doesn't make me feel better about the fact that I'm in here and they are out there in the sun!
You can also live all your life working and not live in a nice area, never read a book, or eat a healthy meal.
 
truthseeker said:
If you are happy to live that lifestyle, fine.
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The point is a lot of people don't see it as being fine.

The argument 'Sure if it's so great, why don't you do it yourself?' is not good enough.

If the dole was doubled in the morning would you feel aggrieved as a taxpayer? Of course you would, the option to go on the dole yourself doesn't make it acceptable.

As a PAYE worker it sometimes feels fairly marginalised (despite their being almost 2 million of us). It's fair game to take more than half of any wage we earn above €35k at the moment with a guilt trip that we're not contributing enough.

Working 3 hours overtime on a sunny evening and paying half of what I get for it to the state fairly focused my mind on the argument of who's not contributing enough to society
 
DerKaiser - your post has moved away slightly from the OPs original point. The point that was being made was to 'show' these people that there is a 'better' life. I was simply commenting that if they are happy with that life, then thats how they are going to live and my idea of a better life may mean nothing to them and they may well have zero interest in aspiring to that better life.

A different argument is the cost to society - and I totally agree with you on this one.

If you are happy to live that lifestyle - fine, in the context of the individual themselves being happy to do it.

In the context of the cost to me, you and other tax payers - well we need a major change to society to stop giving these handouts and make the situation fairer for all members of society and not let the lazy dole-ites benefit to the cost of the rest of us.
 

Yes, but I'd like to think when I am in a nursing home that I can look back at my life and realise I'd seen more of the world and done more with my life then pouring cider down my throat.

As for the self employed being bottom of the heap, funny, in the boom years I knew self employed people who laughed at me for being a PRSI slave and boasted about all the tax they were saving by being self-employed.
 
I have some suggestions:

The welfare state should be redesigned to provide welfare for those in employment who contribute.


1. Therefore, unemployment payments should only be paid to those who have worked and paid PRSI:
    • Therefore, abolish JSA (dole)
    • Keep JSB, maybe 250-300 pw for 9/12 months, with an extension of 9 months during a recession.
2. I feel that lone parents payments should also be abolished.

3. Pay a lower pension for those who do not pay PRSI (currently, the NC OAP is just about 10 pw less than the C OAP):
Contributory pension = 300pw
Never worked = 200pw
​
4. Make it an expectation that a job / training / retraining is available for all adults. Give subsidies / support / payments for all ST unemployed to re-train, etc.

Anybody in employment should not fear unemployment (generous JSB and supports), but all those unemployed should be expected to participate in the lab mkt.

For those with less skills, lack of confidence, out of touch with the lab mkt, again strong intervention to support a movement back to the lab mkt.


Long term un should not be tolerated - it is bad for everybody.
 
Yes, but I'd like to think when I am in a nursing home that I can look back at my life and realise I'd seen more of the world and done more with my life then pouring cider down my throat.
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I wouldn't count on it. Many dole people get more money than the minimum waged. Not only will they be able to afford to see more of the world, but will have more time to do it too. While you're slaving away, paying for FF/Banks/Nama, they'll be off on their Ryanair break. Living life.

As for the self employed being bottom of the heap, funny, in the boom years I knew self employed people who laughed at me for being a PRSI slave and boasted about all the tax they were saving by being self-employed.
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How do you save tax by being self employed? 'S' class directors pay more tax then employees because they do not have PAYE tax credits.
I certainly don't save one cent in tax by being self employed. Indeed, every cent is accounted for.
I'm a muggins.
 
Agree with a lot of protocols post.

Not so sure about lone parents payments being totally abolished,maybe being paid up until the child is in secondary school? Or provide childcare?

It is utter maddness that they get this money until the child is 21!!

Id also say make it compulsary that job /training/retraining is undertaken for all.

There seems to be a lot of fit healthy young people who are unemployed,highly educated ,that are getting this JSA. (through no fault of their own in most cases).

While the parents shouldn't have to continue to pay for their keep ,and even though they are unemployed,they are young ,fit ,healthy highly educated and get money every week from the state!

Now imagine that,living in your parents house,educated by the state for free (ISH),getting approx 100/125e a week,and your only 20. Party time me thinks.

Maybe that scheme whereby those who were on the dole were given a certain amount of money to leave the country should be brought back in? So those who have the education to get a job abroad could be incentivised to go.
 
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Maybe that scheme whereby those who were on the dole were given a certain amount of money to leave the country should be brought back in?
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This time, for a change, it should be the politicians and their cronies that are forced to leave the state - or get executed for treason.
 
Agree..
But for our young people ,to give them a chance to get out of this hell hole, it could help.
 

I assume they are indulging in some creative accounting. Don't a lot of self-employed people do that?
 
thedaras said:
Agree..
But for our young people ,to give them a chance to get out of this hell hole, it could help.
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It would be good for the individuals, but as a society I dont think its a good idea to send all our young educated people elsewhere (people our society has paid to educate). Its a brain drain.
 
I assume they are indulging in some creative accounting. Don't a lot of self-employed people do that?
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I honestly don't know any self employed people that do this.
I've often asked my accountant about various ways of getting money out of a company without having to pay income tax on it, but there are no loopholes. At least not for me.
I pay full whack taxes.

Any expenses have to be wholly and solely for the business. Same as any other employee.
 
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