The screw is being turned on the DUP

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Duke of Marmalade

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This is a very informative piece about the GFA, Brexit and the ECHR.
The main aim of the DUP, as I see it, is to unpick the GFA. They can only do that with the UK out of the ECJ and not bound by the ECHR.
Okay read the article. Tony Connelly as usual well informed. But I have a few bones to pick. He states that the main diff between Sunningdale and GFA was the rights dimension. Maybe so in the letter but my experience of the referendum on the GFA was that the rights issue was on nobody's radar, and indeed it produced no enhancement to their rights. The GFA was summed up in the public's minds as 1. Power Sharing for catholics 2. Principle of consent for protestants. 3. Release from prison for terrorists. And of course the great majority across both communities dared to hope that the nightmare might be ending.
The ref was passed with about 99% of catholics in support and 50% of protestants.
Let's not get all in a twist on rights. Really we have little to moan about if we are concerned that Northern nationalists should be able to elect 1 of the 750 MEPs.
The British are renowned for their commitment to social justice and rights. They fought two horrendous wars against those on the continent who brutally suppressed human rights. Indeed they have been a leading influence on the EU in this area.
I don't think these days there is much difference between Western democracies on human rights but personally, if I had to chose, I would have more confidence in British long term commitment to human rights than our newly converted friends in Germany, Spain, Italy etc.
 
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Sophrosyne

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Let's stick to Ireland, Theobold. I think Boris could easily follow a do nothing strategy in Ireland for quite some time. Even smugglers and Bulgarians etc. need a little time to exploit any gaps. So that really puts it up to EU/Ireland. If EU similarly do nothing then Boris has won - this whole thing about the border was bogus all along. But the EU have to do something and that really puts Leo on a spot.
It is all bogus along with the feigned backstop outrage. It is just an excuse to reject the withdrawal agreement.

The backstop cannot be considered in isolation.

If the UK crashes out, how would it replace the current 46% of its trade with the EU plus the percentage of its trade with non-EU countries negotiated by EU trade deals?

It is not a case of putting it up to the EU or Ireland.

The UK has to negotiate with the EU and it will not be easy.

Current UK posturing is just howling at the moon. How it handles EU withdrawal, including Northern Ireland issues, directly affects its future relations with the EU.

The EU with its power to block trade deals with any of its member states has the upper hand. Negotiations could last several years. In the meantime, loss of trade will begin to bite in all parts of the UK.

It is interesting to note that according to this briefing paper:

“Wales, followed by Northern Ireland and the North East of England had the highest percentage of goods exports going to the EU of all the countries and regions in the UK in 2018. The East of England followed by Northern Ireland had the joint highest proportion of goods imports from the EU.”

Of course, another point is that the UK will in future be a competitor with the EU for trade with non-EU countries. The UK is hardly in a position to negotiate the better trade deals.
 

Laughahalla

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The British are renowned for their commitment to social justice and rights. They fought two horrendous wars against those on the continent who brutally suppressed human rights.
Really?

Slave trade
Irish Famine (Genocide by today's definition)
Partition of Ireland under threat of war
Boer concentration camps
Amritsar massacre
Partitioning of India
Mau Mau Uprising
Famines in India
Hooded Men
Birmingham six

I'm sure there is plenty more too. The first world came about because of alliances, imperialism, militarism and nationalism. Nothing to do with human rights. WW2 came about because of WW1.
 

WolfeTone

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There is a litany of people, republican and loyalist, Catholic and Protestant, Irish and British, trying to find out the truth of what happened to their loved ones during the conflict.
The British state is actively suppressing, delaying, obsfucating in releasing details to those families.
It only took the families of Bloody Sunday forty years to get the truth out. In the meantime, the families of;

Loughinisland
Greysteel
Birmingham
Omagh
Aiden McAnespie
Billy Wright
Miami Showband
Dublin/Monaghan
...and countless others.

all waiting for the truth to be outed, and to know what did agents of the British state know before, and after, the killings of their loved ones.

Putting human rights on paper through legislation is one thing, acting upon those rights is another.

There is no way the nationalist communities in the North would accept the British Supreme Court as a final arbitrator.
 

Purple

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Really?

Slave trade
Irish Famine (Genocide by today's definition)
Partition of Ireland under threat of war
Boer concentration camps
Amritsar massacre
Partitioning of India
Mau Mau Uprising
Famines in India
Hooded Men
Birmingham six

I'm sure there is plenty more too. The first world came about because of alliances, imperialism, militarism and nationalism. Nothing to do with human rights. WW2 came about because of WW1.
Don't forget Hillsborough and the cover up after that as well.
Then there's their record of suppressing democracy in their former colonies and installing puppet regimes which are "friendly" to British economic interests. Of course they are far from alone in that but I certainly wouldn't put them up on a pedestal.

Not many countries started wars so that their drug traffickers could continue to sell their poison. The Opium Wars fought by the UK (and aided by France in the second war) saw China's GDP cut in half. Before then it had the biggest economy in the world, as had been the case for hundreds of years, and a large trade surplus with the West. They didn't recover for over a hundred years.

Their record in India is utterly appalling and more recently in the Middle East they fought some of those wars to protect dictators and suppress democracy.
 
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Early Riser

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Don't forget Hillsborough and the cover up after that as well.
Then there's their record of suppressing democracy in their former colonies and installing puppet regimes which are "friendly" to British economic interests. Of course they are far from alone in that but I certainly wouldn't put them up on a pedestal.

Not many countries started wars so that their drug traffickers could continue to sell their poison. The Opium Wars fought by the UK (and aided by France in the second war) saw China's GDP cut in half. Before then it had the biggest economy in the world, as had been the case for hundreds of years, and a large trade surplus with the West. They didn't recover for over a hundred years.

Their record in India is utterly appalling and more recently in the Middle East they fought some of those wars to protect dictators and suppress democracy.
Yeah - but they have been great for us here. Apart from dispossessing us, colonising us, disbarring us from owning property or practicing the professions, presiding over the famine, partitioning us (and a few other things) they have been very good really. I think we can trust them.
 

Duke of Marmalade

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These are very cheap shots. I would be further exacerbating my falling into the trap of Godwin's Law to give examples of astronomically greater atrocities committed in continental Europe.
If folk here are so narrow minded that they do not recognise Britain's worldwide reputation for promoting human rights and democratic principles, well what can I say? Even the founders of this State who had to fight Britain to get independence had the sense to more or less follow the British model in establishing our democracy.
I cannot believe that anybody seriously thinks the basic rights of folk in Britain will be worse under Brexit. Ok, JC riffs on a bit about workers' rights but by and large Remoaners have made no issue about the threat to rights.
 
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WolfeTone

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Don't forget Hillsborough
Very true. Speaking of which.

*Link has gone behind a firewall. But basically the jist of it is that scousers are less euro sceptic, and the 'Dont buy The Scum' campaign is a significant factor.
Sales went from 55,000 daily to 12,000 after Hillsborough.
 

Sophrosyne

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If folk here are so narrow minded that they do not recognise Britain's worldwide reputation for promoting human rights and democratic principles, well what can I say?
I remember the civil rights movement in NI. The banners shouted One Man One Vote. The burning issues were discrimination in housing, in public sector appointments, protestant domination of the main industries, a sectarian police force.
Promotion of human rights and democratic principles as applied to its citizens in Northern Ireland?
 

Purple

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These are very cheap shots.
No, they are the truth.
If folk here are so narrow minded that they do not recognise Britain's worldwide reputation for promoting human rights and democratic principles, well what can I say?
I'll say that you, and the rest of us, have a very anglocentric view of the world and the Brits are great self publicists. (just like the Irish)
I'll say that every colonial power built their colonies on blood, suffering, oppression and exploitation and the British are no better than anyone else.
Even the founders of this State who had to fight Britain to get independence had the sense to more or less follow the British model in establishing our democracy.
Yep, that great paragon of liberalism and tolerance, Cromwell, gave the world Parliamentary democracy. I think we followed the UK model and stayed in the Commonwealth because Dev thought it would make a united Ireland more likely. That idiot John A. Costello, in an attempt to wash some green into his blue shirt, pulled us out in 1949.
I cannot believe that anybody seriously thinks the basic rights of folk in Britain will be worse under Brexit.
Well I'm thinking specifically about Nationalists in Northern Ireland under a DUP lead devolved government, with no recourse to the ECJ.
 

Sunny

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These are very cheap shots. I would be further exacerbating my falling into the trap of Godwin's Law to give examples of astronomically greater atrocities committed in continental Europe.
If folk here are so narrow minded that they do not recognise Britain's worldwide reputation for promoting human rights and democratic principles, well what can I say? Even the founders of this State who had to fight Britain to get independence had the sense to more or less follow the British model in establishing our democracy.
I cannot believe that anybody seriously thinks the basic rights of folk in Britain will be worse under Brexit. Ok, JC riffs on a bit about workers' rights but by and large Remoaners have made no issue about the threat to rights.
You are fond of your labels for people! Referring to people as remoaners belongs in the comments section of the daily mail.
 

Opus2018

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These are very cheap shots. I would be further exacerbating my falling into the trap of Godwin's Law to give examples of astronomically greater atrocities committed in continental Europe.
If folk here are so narrow minded that they do not recognise Britain's worldwide reputation for promoting human rights and democratic principles, well what can I say? Even the founders of this State who had to fight Britain to get independence had the sense to more or less follow the British model in establishing our democracy.
I cannot believe that anybody seriously thinks the basic rights of folk like us worse under Brexit. Ok, JC riffs on a bit about workers' rights but by and large Remoaners have made no issue about the threat to rights.
I have been following this thread for while, and I have been getting increasingly angry with your condescending posts - it appears you would have us leave the EU along with the UK. In other news the UK is great and are above reproach in your world view, which if you truly believe, I would worry about your general grasp on reality to be quite frank with you.

To be honest, I think you should reflect on the crassness of your posts and think before you post again on this issue - at this stage you sound like an angry Colonel Blimp character which perfectly reflects the crassness of a Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph editorial. All you need to add in is two world wars an and one world cup - at this stage you are a sad joke and an apologist for the UK. Clearly, you don't appear to be happy in Ireland, perhaps you should consider leaving for the sunny uplands of Albion - which will be available on Nov 1, 2019 apparently.

In relation to Brexit, I say let them leave - we will be better off without the UK in the long run. Another theme is that the UK feels that the EU needs them more than the UK - oh boy, will that be shown up as being WRONG! (Operation Yellowhammer -which is so out of date, Philip Hammond has said that it was compiled since the blonde moron has come to power).

Does Ireland have many failings? we sure do but our best strength is that we can adapt, the history of the UK in relation to this attribute has been very poor for the last few generations.

I feel sorry for people in the UK who voted remain, I really do. But to think the EU should facilitate the crass stupidity of 17.4 million people by allowing them the advantages of the single market without any of the responsibilities is frankly delusional. If you believe the story wrought by Farage and his ilk, you must be a very silly man or if you seek it for your own advantage, then your posts take on a darker tone.

Either way, you have zero credibility with regards to me and hopefully anyone else who has followed this thread. To be honest, you should hang your head in shame with the pure rubbish that you've posted here. Hopefully the mods will put this thread out of its' misery and reflect on the "quality" of your postings.

Best regards,

Opus2018.
 

Duke of Marmalade

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Promotion of human rights and democratic principles as applied to its citizens in Northern Ireland?
Fair point Soph. But I am looking for some sense of proportion here. Purple gave us a link to a long article by Tony Connelly on rights, GFA and Brexit. I saw only two examples cited of possible abuses of rights under Brexit. The first was the possibility that in future to claim widow's pension you might actually need to be a widow. This would affect all UK citizens but strangely has not arisen as a concern in their debate. The second abuse of rights which would only apply to Northern nationalists is that they would be denied an MEP. Note that this outrage would be perpetrated by the EU not by the evil Brits. Any Northern nationalist who claims oppressed by this denial of an MEP has either a persecution complex or a nostalgia for the bad old days when she wallowed in her victim status on the world stage.
 

Early Riser

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. I saw only two examples cited of possible abuses of rights under Brexit.
Here is another one, Duke: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/derry-woman-puts-her-finger-on-a-bizarre-brexit-anomaly-1.3795544

But there is a more general issue than listing individual examples. Given the history of NI it would be a bit naive to expect to "trust Britain" to protect human rights there post Brexit. I think access to the ECJ would be more reasssuring. There is also the concern that the same wing of the Tories who pushed Brexit have also been pushing for the UK to renounce the European Convention on Human Rights and leave the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights.
 

Duke of Marmalade

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I have been following this thread for while, and I have been getting increasingly angry with your condescending posts - it appears you would have us leave the EU along with the UK. In other news the UK is great and are above reproach in your world view, which if you truly believe, I would worry about your general grasp on reality to be quite frank with you.

To be honest, I think you should reflect on the crassness of your posts and think before you post again on this issue - at this stage you sound like an angry Colonel Blimp character which perfectly reflects the crassness of a Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph editorial. All you need to add in is two world wars an and one world cup - at this stage you are a sad joke and an apologist for the UK. Clearly, you don't appear to be happy in Ireland, perhaps you should consider leaving for the sunny uplands of Albion - which will be available on Nov 1, 2019 apparently.

In relation to Brexit, I say let them leave - we will be better off without the UK in the long run. Another theme is that the UK feels that the EU needs them more than the UK - oh boy, will that be shown up as being WRONG! (Operation Yellowhammer -which is so out of date, Philip Hammond has said that it was compiled since the blonde moron has come to power).

Does Ireland have many failings? we sure do but our best strength is that we can adapt, the history of the UK in relation to this attribute has been very poor for the last few generations.

I feel sorry for people in the UK who voted remain, I really do. But to think the EU should facilitate the crass stupidity of 17.4 million people by allowing them the advantages of the single market without any of the responsibilities is frankly delusional. If you believe the story wrought by Farage and his ilk, you must be a very silly man or if you seek it for your own advantage, then your posts take on a darker tone.

Either way, you have zero credibility with regards to me and hopefully anyone else who has followed this thread. To be honest, you should hang your head in shame with the pure rubbish that you've posted here. Hopefully the mods will put this thread out of its' misery and reflect on the "quality" of your postings.

Best regards,

Opus2018.
Chill out woman!
Mods I hope you do not close this debate. It has been a useful airing of the many complexities of a very important imminent event for Ireland even if there are those who do want to hear any narrative alternative to their own.
 

WolfeTone

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Well I for one would not wish this discussion to descend into some rudderless Brit bashing exercise. So for the record, I am an admirer of many things British. Mainly, its people. I have spent quite some time in Britain, mostly England, a while in Scotland, a short time in Wales.
Edinburgh has been one of favourite cities to visit anywhere in the world despite experiencing some anti-Irish verbals (I put it down to Hearts v Hibs earlier in the day).
As a life-long Liverpool FC fan, if I ever win the lotto, a season ticket in Anfield hospitality is a priority. London is a city that never lets me down. Cities such as York and Canterbury should not missed. Olde England is a truly wonderful sight.
The humor, the generosity, the candour.
Britain, its people, have much to be proud of, rightly so. Arts, culture, science and technology, Britain has been a leading innovator in generating higher standards of living across the world, and in adopting and setting principles of democracy and equality.

None of that negates the subjugation, tyranny, oppression by its government and armed forces. In Ireland or elsewhere.

But we dont have to travel to far to know that governments (even 'democratic' ones) are prone to marginalizing, discrimination, incarceration of its own people. The Mother and Babies scandal (too light a word) is a shameful and despicable episode in our recent history.
And while we cheerlead ourselves on the back for the liberalization of marriage for same sex couples, we would be minded to note that homosexuality as an offence was only repealed mid-1990's. An estimated 150 men, were convicted of this 'crime'. Not to mention the untold numbers who were blatantly discriminated against destroying their careers, shunning them from society.

So back to Brexit and GFA. I have said it several times, Ireland's interests in the United Kingdom has always been, and is today, a distant second from Britains interests in the UK.

Brexit has brought this fact to the surface once again.

The existence of NI is out of threat of violence, and usurpation of democracy. In the last UK census, only 29% identify themselves as Northern Irish.
This is not a nation. It was, ironically, a backstop for Unionists, back in 1921.
It is a failed state in my opinion. Propped up by British financing, it has never established itself in any real way as a nation in itself that constitutes a nation of people.
Its existence has two objectives. First is honourable - remain loyal to its monarch.
Second is sinister - not to accept that the future of this island on a shared equal basis.

The GFA is not a settlement. It offers the best prospect of a long-term settlement, albeit there are so many cracks showing now.
At its gut, it the realization that British people in NI could live as being British without dilution of their identity. And Irish people could live as Irish people with all the aspirations, or none, of uniting the people of the country harmoniously over the future generations.

Brexit, and Brexiteers, have thrown a spanner in all of that. No regard to Britains obligations under the GFA or to any possible consequences in Ireland was considered before the referendum.

Ireland's interests are a distant second to Britains interests in the United Kingdom.

I want Britain to leave EU, last March in fact. That is their right and entitlement. But it has obligations to Ireland and its people. The whole DUP argument is predicated on a notion that UK laws applicable to Britain cannot diverge from laws applicable to NI - bogus, a hoax!
The NI only backstop is a trade arrangement that protects the integrity of the GFA.
There is no border in the Irish sea. People travelling on UK passport from Belfast to Britain will not be subject to any checks. Goods manufactured in NI, labelled "made in UK" will not be subjected to tariffs in Britain.

The crux of this issue is, once again, Ulster Unionisms refusal to reach out the hand and accept that this island is for us all to live, and prosper.
 
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