The pace of agents going bust is unreal.

ringledman

Registered User
Messages
620
The pace of agents going bust is unreal.

Anymore to add to this list-

Parador Properties- Med
City lofts - UK city centre off plan
Inside Track - UK off plan new build

I think you have to be very careful who you deal with as buying offplan who knows if the agent will be there come completion time.
 
Re: Bust Agents

In general, the agent through whom you deal makes absolutely no difference, all they are is introductory agents and most take no further action once the introduction to the developer/builder has been made. Some of the better ones do a bit of 'hand holding' during the process but it is possible to get through this part without an agent, it is just more awkward.

What you really need to be wary of is your developer/builder going bust. Take good independent legal guidance before you sign anything; be certain that the builder is, and will remain, solvent; make sure the property is bank bonded (if such a concept exists in the country in which you intend to purchase) and make sure your money is going into escrow or some similar arrangement until the property is completed to the level for which that payment is due. You should also ensure that you have some entitlement to a lien on the land on which the property is to be built in a case where the builder does fail to complete the project.

If you're buying second hand your agent makes absolutely no difference, you won't even need the hand-holding bit. All legal precautions still obviously apply plus the need to have a survey done on the unit, particularly if it is an older property.

In the current environment it is very difficult to justify buying off plan at all unless you're getting a huge discount for taking the associated risks.
 
Re: Bust Agents

To say the amount of agents going out business is "unreal" is a bit melodramatic. Of the three you have mentioned, two are specifically related to the UK residential market which is in dire straits currently.
The majority of strong agents, with a sustainable business, model have adapted to the change in the market and are in a position to trade through the downturn and wait for the inevitable upswing in fortunes.
 
Re: Bust Agents

Did anyone buy off plan in Dermitas Turkey ? Properties were sold over 2Yrs ago and they have not started to build any of them yet even though they were to be completed in Jan.2008. This example illustrates the risks of buying off plan and there was no credit crisis back 2yrs ago. This current crisis will only be used as an excuse by the weaker outfits as you say those that plan properly will survive and look after their clients in a proper manner.
 
Agents going bust is a reflection on how the industry is going at the moment, pretty awful if you're trying to sell property. It is likely only the thin end of the wedge though, because if agents aren't selling then developers aren't either. When they start going bust then there is big trouble and people will lose money.

As a case in point, Martinsa-Fadesa, the big Spanish builder, has filed for bankruptcy protection, see [broken link removed]. This is likely to lead to a lot of people not receiving property for which they have paid some portion of the money. This is a very worrying development as they are only one of many that are hurting very badly at the moment.
 
The huge consolidation that will happen in the agent market over the next 5 years will hopefully be good for the average joe purchaser.

The industry boom has pulled in far too many crooks and salespeople from all over with no interest except for making a quick buck for themselves.

All the rip off merchants who sell beach and ski units in oversupplied areas as so called 'investments' will be hit hard by punters who cannot no longer afford to buy and who are finally wising up to the rip off that 90% of agents are.

The double pricing to foreigners and non disclosure of developer fees will hopefully become a thing of the past.

By the way TRMA can you confirm what the typical hidden fee % that you receive from developers is?
 
By the way TRMA can you confirm what the typical hidden fee % that you receive from developers is?
The % commision an agent receive varies from country to country. It is not a hidden fee as clients will be made aware that they dont pay commision - that the developer pays a sales commision to the agent. The commsion is paid for services rendered i.e. bringing a new market to a developer that they couldn't access directly, or if they could, it would cost them a considerable amoiunt to put the logistics in place.
The commision payable will be higher than that of an indigenous property transaction as the costs are higher.
Also, overseas property agencies aren't paid seperately for things like advertising etc. as can happen in property transactions in Ireland. All the costs for running the business come from the percentage commision and if you dont sell you have no income.
No business that I am aware of will supply details on their entire commercial model to every client they deal with, unless it is a statutory requirement, such as financial products regulated by the FRA.
Ultimately overseas property as a product is subject to the same laws of supply and demand as any other entity - properties are priced at a level the market can bear and adjusted pro rata in response to changes in supply and demand.
 
The % commision an agent receive varies from country to country. It is not a hidden fee as clients will be made aware that they dont pay commision - that the developer pays a sales commision to the agent. The commsion is paid for services rendered i.e. bringing a new market to a developer that they couldn't access directly, or if they could, it would cost them a considerable amoiunt to put the logistics in place.
The commision payable will be higher than that of an indigenous property transaction as the costs are higher.
Also, overseas property agencies aren't paid seperately for things like advertising etc. as can happen in property transactions in Ireland. All the costs for running the business come from the percentage commision and if you dont sell you have no income.
No business that I am aware of will supply details on their entire commercial model to every client they deal with, unless it is a statutory requirement, such as financial products regulated by the FRA.
Ultimately overseas property as a product is subject to the same laws of supply and demand as any other entity - properties are priced at a level the market can bear and adjusted pro rata in response to changes in supply and demand.

Of course its a hidden fee because agents NEVER disclose how much they are getting in % terms from a developer. Therefore the typical punter doesn't know how much he is overpaying for his property. It could easily be in the region of 20%. Most naive purchasers won't do the research or be able to access the overseas statistics to be able to verify how much he is being ripped off.

What makes the situation worse is that agents usually charge a fee to the buyer also, usually around 2k or so which makes the purchaser believe that that is all he is paying the agent for the so called 'service'. He doesn't realise that he has paid well over the odds for his purchase as the developer upped the price to pay the agent.

Another scam - I had a situation in Budapest where a large well known UK agent tried to sell me a Budapest property in euros. A lengthy check on the internet found the properties being sold on a Hungarian website for around 30% less in Forint terms. Asked to pay the Hungarian price and I was refused.

I have no problem with agents earning a fee and a living from what they do. But what other service industry out there refuses to disclose their fee to their 'clients'? Accountants, engineers, architects, estate agents, lawyers, etc, etc all do. Why should property agents be any different???

The agents that will survive this downturn are the open and transparent ones.

So TRMA whats the typical fee? 5-10% would be fair to cover an agents costs. 10%+ and the client is getting ripped off.
 
So TRMA whats the typical fee? 5-10% would be fair to cover an agents costs. 10%+ and the client is getting ripped off.
There are two types of agency - those who charge commisions that inflate the price of the property, and those who charge a fair commision which means the client is paying the correct market value for the property. Of the 2 options you have outlined, we are NOT in the commision category that would by your calculations "rip clients off".
Any property price should be calculated on a price per sq/m calculation in comparison to similiar properties in a given area. There may be some small differences in this figure due to facilities and amenities but as a general rule of thumb it works.
 
There are two types of agency - those who charge commisions that inflate the price of the property, and those who charge a fair commision which means the client is paying the correct market value for the property. Of the 2 options you have outlined, we are NOT in the commision category that would by your calculations "rip clients off".
Any property price should be calculated on a price per sq/m calculation in comparison to similiar properties in a given area. There may be some small differences in this figure due to facilities and amenities but as a general rule of thumb it works.


I agree with TRMA, and if you check out the company you will find which of the above examples they follow. We also only get a commission which will leave the property at the standard price for the market. Some builders are greedy, and they say we'll give you 10% but they have already overpriced the property to begin with, so this means the property is above market average. In these cases we either refuse to deal with the builder, or we take less commission and lower the price. We loose, not necessarily the builder. If possible if we have a cash buyer ready to buy we can get the builder to be much more realistic - when he can practically smell the money he will be more agreeable to lower his price.

It seems to me that the agents going bust are those who either rely only on overseas investment, or those who charge unfair commission rates (i.e Parador). The overseas buyers market has slowed here in Turkey in regards to UK and Irish investment, but we are still always able to sell to Turks, and other Europeans - why? because we charge fair rates. In a resale situation we charge the standard 3% commission, which is acknowledged by the Turkish goverment as a fair %. On new builds it depends on the builder and how much work we do for him or how much business we get for him. It is usually 5-10%, but even when we get the higher amount (10%), it is as TRMA says, we will have put in a lot of work and advertising for the builder, and all of these costs are absorbed by us, not the builder. however, the end price is still within market value. If we are getting commission from the bulder we NEVER take commission from the customer also.

A good way to test this is to look for a property you like, then google it and see how many others have this property and if they are all quoting the same prices? In some cases you will find agents who take less commission so that they can offer the property to you at a lower price, or they will offer something extra like white goods etc - we do this on occasion, and sometimes if the builder is unwilling to negotiate on the price, we drop our commisson to get the bargain for the customer (within reason, and never lower than our 3%).

Ringledman - if you are encountering any situation other than the ones TRMA and I have outlined then you are choosing the wrong agencies.

We offer a free due diligence report for any customer who requests it. It is done on the builder, and we can provide on ourselves too if requested. The due diligence report will confirm if the builder is financially sound, has oustanding tax bills, has the correct building permits, has any outstanding legal claims against him etc. This give peace of mind to anyone concerned. The problem with parador et al is that because of their brand name people assumed that they were safe - big offices with fancy furniture is no indication of the long term security of the company. And it was parador et al who were the ones charging 20%+ not the rest of us.

As you rightly say,
The agents that will survive this downturn are the open and transparent ones.

This is definitely true, and when looking for an agent, one who is totally honest with you is the best one. Any company not prepared to provide due diligence reports is one you should avoid.

Finally, I really believe that buying off plan without visiting an area is a bad move. At the end of the day the job of an EA is to sell, and whilst many of us are realistic about things, we of course will highlight the positives and downplay negatives. This is not to say we are not beig honest, but you have to accept that we are not going to slate a property we are selling. For example there are areas I personally would not like to buy in, because they are not to my taste, but I'm hardly going to tell a client tht, if they sem really keen on the area?? its like insulting their choice. It is not our job to babysit you - you need to be clear about what you are buying and if it suits you. I cannot know if an apartment will be perfect for you after a few phone conversations and emails. I will try to meet all your criteria, i will give you fair and honest advice, I will not pretend that the complex is 10 min walk to the beach if it is 10 drive! BUT, even after I give good advice it may not be suitable for you. Don't blame the agent if you bought in an area you end up not liking, cos you didn't visit it! We cannot know each clients personal tastes exactly! We rely on what you tell us.

So if you are buying overseas, visit the area. either go independently or book an inspection trip with the company. but if you buy without viewing the area, or conducting due diligence, then some responsibility has to lie with you, and not always be the fault of the agent.
 
I agree with TRMA, and if you check out the company you will find which of the above examples they follow. We also only get a commission which will leave the property at the standard price for the market. Some builders are greedy, and they say we'll give you 10% but they have already overpriced the property to begin with, so this means the property is above market average. In these cases we either refuse to deal with the builder, or we take less commission and lower the price. We loose, not necessarily the builder. If possible if we have a cash buyer ready to buy we can get the builder to be much more realistic - when he can practically smell the money he will be more agreeable to lower his price.

It seems to me that the agents going bust are those who either rely only on overseas investment, or those who charge unfair commission rates (i.e Parador). The overseas buyers market has slowed here in Turkey in regards to UK and Irish investment, but we are still always able to sell to Turks, and other Europeans - why? because we charge fair rates. In a resale situation we charge the standard 3% commission, which is acknowledged by the Turkish goverment as a fair %. On new builds it depends on the builder and how much work we do for him or how much business we get for him. It is usually 5-10%, but even when we get the higher amount (10%), it is as TRMA says, we will have put in a lot of work and advertising for the builder, and all of these costs are absorbed by us, not the builder. however, the end price is still within market value. If we are getting commission from the bulder we NEVER take commission from the customer also.

A good way to test this is to look for a property you like, then google it and see how many others have this property and if they are all quoting the same prices? In some cases you will find agents who take less commission so that they can offer the property to you at a lower price, or they will offer something extra like white goods etc - we do this on occasion, and sometimes if the builder is unwilling to negotiate on the price, we drop our commisson to get the bargain for the customer (within reason, and never lower than our 3%).

Ringledman - if you are encountering any situation other than the ones TRMA and I have outlined then you are choosing the wrong agencies.

We offer a free due diligence report for any customer who requests it. It is done on the builder, and we can provide on ourselves too if requested. The due diligence report will confirm if the builder is financially sound, has oustanding tax bills, has the correct building permits, has any outstanding legal claims against him etc. This give peace of mind to anyone concerned. The problem with parador et al is that because of their brand name people assumed that they were safe - big offices with fancy furniture is no indication of the long term security of the company. And it was parador et al who were the ones charging 20%+ not the rest of us.

As you rightly say,

This is definitely true, and when looking for an agent, one who is totally honest with you is the best one. Any company not prepared to provide due diligence reports is one you should avoid.

Finally, I really believe that buying off plan without visiting an area is a bad move. At the end of the day the job of an EA is to sell, and whilst many of us are realistic about things, we of course will highlight the positives and downplay negatives. This is not to say we are not beig honest, but you have to accept that we are not going to slate a property we are selling. For example there are areas I personally would not like to buy in, because they are not to my taste, but I'm hardly going to tell a client tht, if they sem really keen on the area?? its like insulting their choice. It is not our job to babysit you - you need to be clear about what you are buying and if it suits you. I cannot know if an apartment will be perfect for you after a few phone conversations and emails. I will try to meet all your criteria, i will give you fair and honest advice, I will not pretend that the complex is 10 min walk to the beach if it is 10 drive! BUT, even after I give good advice it may not be suitable for you. Don't blame the agent if you bought in an area you end up not liking, cos you didn't visit it! We cannot know each clients personal tastes exactly! We rely on what you tell us.

So if you are buying overseas, visit the area. either go independently or book an inspection trip with the company. but if you buy without viewing the area, or conducting due diligence, then some responsibility has to lie with you, and not always be the fault of the agent.

I still don't get it. Maybe i'm too simple or too damn rational. You charge the developer 5-10% and he just absorbs it or you do? yeah right.

I only deal with agents who charge an upfront fee off the client and none off the developer and can therefore negotiate the best possible deal with the developer in the first phase of the development. I like to know what I pay those working for me.

When I say those who will go bust will be the untransparent ones I mean those who get paid by the developer and never disclose their fee to their so called 'clients'.
 
You should be dealing with a sourcing agent instead of the property agent in that case. I pay my lads a flat fee and they source the property direct.
 
Back
Top