The mythical sophisticated Irish Electorate

Time said:

But it would not stop the Taoiseach of the day from appointing failed Dáil candidates as part of his 11 appointees.

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Well obviously you can ban that as well. If you run for Dail then you cannot be appointed to the Seanad, either by running or by direct appointment.

DerKaiser said:

You're only looking at one side of the equation. Did those voting 'yes' all do so on ideological grounds?

I could make an educated guess and emphatically state that those voting yes were largely swayed by cost savings, a disdain for the fact they don't actually have a vote and cynicism towards politics in general as opposed to an ideological belief that an upper house has no role in a democracy such as ours. I could complain that such reasons were not a valid way of deciding on what way to vote.

I don't believe that I have any business in telling people how they should think though. I certainly don't believe in labelling them in a condescending way.

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I accept the validity of your arguments to a certain extent.
I'm not sure how expressing an opinion has been interpreted as telling people how they should think. I can see how my labelling of the Irish electorate as generally unsophisticated could be seen as condescending, and apologise if I've offended any individual. However it's one of the most benign terms I can think of to describe the mindset of the electorate who vote for the likes of Lowry, Flynn & Wallace, et al, or who are purely motivated by the desire to give the government of the day a bloody nose regardless of the issue concerned. I believe a bit of counterbalance to the patronising spin by certain quarters is no harm at all. Here's hoping I'm proved wrong, and that the Seanad will/can be reformed into a meaningful relevant institution, however I live more in hope than expectation on this matter!

Purple said:

I agree. We should therefore reform the way we elect TD's so that such people have a chance of being members of the Dail. The solution is not to have then in an upper house with no democratic mandate from the people.

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The Dail is based on local constituencies, party politics and a single transferable vote. There is very little chance that this structure would ever evolve to supporting a useful contribution from an independent mind. George Lee, Peter Matthews and their like might have found a more useful input in a second house that is not based on party politics.

I think democracy is over-rated, look at the collection of skilled individuals it gives us in the Dail. I like the structure of the university Seanad votes but not that the grouping is certain universities. The Seanad should be elected by the public based on a national list system for a range of categories that could include agriculture, arts & entertainment, business, youth, education, minority groups etc.

Evander73 said:

I'm not sure how expressing an opinion has been interpreted as telling people how they should think.

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Because you express disdain for them and the choice they made instead of disagreeing with the result. It was an opinion about the voters rather than the vote.

Evander73 said:

I believe a bit of counterbalance to the patronising spin by certain quarters is no harm at all.

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(Am tempted to point out the tone of your original post )

Evander73 said:

Here's hoping I'm proved wrong, and that the Seanad will/can be reformed into a meaningful relevant institution, however I live more in hope than expectation on this matter!

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It can be reformed, how much within the bounds of the current constitution we will see over the next year. A small start has been indicated by the Taoiseach, hopefully there will be more to follow. Crossing my fingers too.

ontour said:

like the structure of the university Seanad votes

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Are you a graduate?
Many white people in South Africa like apartheid. Some even said it was democratic. It was more democratic than how we elect our Seanad so they did have a point.

Purple said:

Are you a graduate?

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I have graduated..many times!

My point was promoting the retention of a university panel, it was promoting the structure of vested interest panels.

ontour said:

I have graduated..many times!

My point was promoting the retention of a university panel, it was promoting the structure of vested interest panels.

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A university panel is a vested interest panel. It represents the interests of a group whose interests are vested in those universities. Any other system than a universal franchise will be a system based on vested interests.

Purple said:

A university panel is a vested interest panel. It represents the interests of a group whose interests are vested in those universities. Any other system than universal a franchise will be a system based on vested interests.

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And I support people who have a vested interest in our society having that perspective represented. Thousands of people give of their time freely to charities, the perspective of charities should be represented in the Seanad, the same is true for sports. Education should be represented but not as a the current panel, it should include teachers, researchers, adult literacy, people on boards of management of the primary school.

ontour said:

And I support people who have a vested interest in our society having that perspective represented. Thousands of people give of their time freely to charities, the perspective of charities should be represented in the Seanad, the same is true for sports. Education should be represented but not as a the current panel, it should include teachers, researchers, adult literacy, people on boards of management of the primary school.

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All of the above do get a voice in a universal franchise, just like everyone else.
Why should anyone get more of a voice than anyone else in a democracy?
“One person one vote” Anything else isn’t democracy.
Should only property owners get to vote in local elections since only they pay local property taxes?
Should only income tax payers get to vote in general elections?

Charities are funded by the public. The public should get to elect the people who channel state funding into charitable bodies.
As a rule the people act in their own interest therefore if educators get to decide how the education system is run it will be run for the benefit of those educators, not for the benefit of those being educated. The same applies to health services and any other sector/industry/business/service.