Could someone in the business please clarify if it can take up to 4 years to register a transfer of property plus mortgage if all documents lodged are in order as it seems from AAM that it takes an awful long time, what do they actually do with the documents, as in physically do and how long this registration in hours/days could take, is it not just a matter of typing names/addresses matched to folios into some computer system - am I missing something?
The Land Registry - why is it so slow and what do they do
- Thread starter Bronte
- Start date
In fairness to the Land Registry some dealings are completed by them within days of documents being lodged. Others, but they can be the exception, can take years. My current record with them is dealing lodged in 2002 and still waiting.
Some delay can be down to solicitors mistakes, architects mistakes, land registrys own mistakes but the reality is they are chronically understaffed relative to the huge number of transactions that they deal with. I have had a few run ins with Land Reg staff over the years but in general , and to give them their due, they do a very good job IMHO. At the end of the day it is far more important that they get their job right than they get it done quickly.
Just to add to Madanagan......
Also, the Land Registry gives a State Guaranteed Title - not something that should be bandied about lightly.
"is it not just a matter of typing names/addresses matched to folios into some computer system - am I missing something? "
Ye Gods!!! Treachery and falsehoods!!!
Thats a bit like saying that all solicitors do in conveyancing is change the names and addresses - its a good deal more complicated than that.
mf
Also, the Land Registry gives a State Guaranteed Title - not something that should be bandied about lightly.
"is it not just a matter of typing names/addresses matched to folios into some computer system - am I missing something? "
Ye Gods!!! Treachery and falsehoods!!!
Thats a bit like saying that all solicitors do in conveyancing is change the names and addresses - its a good deal more complicated than that.
mf
My question was posed because of the amount of people on AAM with problems with title not being registered. I now understand that it can take 8 years, (2002 of Madagan) I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense and saying they are understaffed? 8 years is a very very, long time. I have a copy folio, it has my name and the name of the previous 2 owners, I think the mortgage of the previous owners is handwritten in there and the date it was redeemed plus the date of my mortgage, we are not talking a lot of information, so what is it physically that they do with the documents, MF1 I was not comparing it to the job of conveyancing. Just trying to understand from an ordinary person's point of view what actually happens. Dazza 21 - you think 8 years is an improvement? I can understand that you lodge documents and something is wrong, but they send it back to the solicitor surely who sorts it out, where does it go for 8 years?
Mainly the applications that take the longest involve mapping. There are huge backlogs in that area. The Property Registration Authority has recently digitised all mapping, a huge undertaking that will serve us well in the future. They have aligned LR title with OS survey maps. Some straightforward transactions can take place in a matter of days or weeks. Some of the more complicated transactions involving an examination of title can take up to 2 years or longer because the examiners of title have backlogs. They are chronically understaffed. It is a fantastic service in the main with some of the best public service I have ever come across and they deserve our praise.
No i would say 8 years is far too long but this sort of delay is extremely rare. If it is a transfer of a whole folio then it takes a matter of months to complete provided the application is correct going in. However, where there is subdivision of a folio this can take up to 2 years on average to complete. This still in my view is too long.
However the Land Registry are really trying to improve their service. They are in the process of moving over to digital mapping which speeds up the process especially where subdivision of a folio is involved. Their current online services are miles ahead of any other government body.
That's quite a statement, given the outstanding online services offered by the Revenue Commissioners, for example.
Fair enough point. The Revenue Commissioners are however somewhat partly to blame with delays in registration. There can be significant delays in getting Deeds stamped which is necessary before they can be registered. E-stamping will, hopefully, solve this soon.
ubiquitous
Registered User
- Messages
- 3,782
For what its worth, the Revenue's systems are still in the dark ages in relation to conveyances, stamp duty, CGT and other aspects of tax administration not covered by the ROS system.
Hi, I work in the Land Registry (a friend noticed this thread and passed it on to me). There are a number of reasons for delays in registration. Some of the most important are;
High demand - In 2004 there were less than 200,000 registrations whereas in 2006 there were nearly a quarter of a million without any additional staff. In 1998 there was 123,000 registrations, and staffing has not gone up enough to cater for a doubling in demand for our services over the last 10 years.
Mapping - the housing boom has led to unprecedented demand for applications involving mapping, which are more complicated to do, involving several processes. The problem is that if a backlog develops in one area it has knock on effects for the entire place. There is a backlog in the mapping area at present, but this will be addressed by computerisation (see below).
Computerisation - we are in the process of moving to digitised maps. That in itself creates difficulties as we are in effect running two registration systems in tandem during the transition period. Also, resources have to be directed towards digitising folios and maps It also means when a county is being digitised, registrations involving mapping have to be held over for a while to ensure accuracy in the Register. In 2010 when the digitisation programme is complete, the system will be much more streamlined and faster.
Quality of service - the work we do is try to ensure that solicitors have done their job properly and the property has been correctly transferred in law. It's labour intensive and involves legally trained people inspecting every document lodged to ensure it's good in law, before deciding on whether or not to register. It's not just a matter of banging a few letters into a computer. We provide a guarantee that if we make an error and let a bad registration through and you lose out as a result that we will compensate you.
So what can you do?
If you're a solicitor, use the electronic services as much as possible - it reduces the time we have to spend on those tasks and lets us get on with making registrations. Take a bit of care in lodging applications, as every query raised prevents another application being done.
If you're not, bear in mind that in general (with certain exceptions) you have the legal protection of registration from the date you lodge the application. Once it's in (and in order for registration) you are fine, so there's no need to panic about it not being completed. If you do need it completed urgently for some reason, get in touch and we will get it done.
High demand - In 2004 there were less than 200,000 registrations whereas in 2006 there were nearly a quarter of a million without any additional staff. In 1998 there was 123,000 registrations, and staffing has not gone up enough to cater for a doubling in demand for our services over the last 10 years.
Mapping - the housing boom has led to unprecedented demand for applications involving mapping, which are more complicated to do, involving several processes. The problem is that if a backlog develops in one area it has knock on effects for the entire place. There is a backlog in the mapping area at present, but this will be addressed by computerisation (see below).
Computerisation - we are in the process of moving to digitised maps. That in itself creates difficulties as we are in effect running two registration systems in tandem during the transition period. Also, resources have to be directed towards digitising folios and maps It also means when a county is being digitised, registrations involving mapping have to be held over for a while to ensure accuracy in the Register. In 2010 when the digitisation programme is complete, the system will be much more streamlined and faster.
Quality of service - the work we do is try to ensure that solicitors have done their job properly and the property has been correctly transferred in law. It's labour intensive and involves legally trained people inspecting every document lodged to ensure it's good in law, before deciding on whether or not to register. It's not just a matter of banging a few letters into a computer. We provide a guarantee that if we make an error and let a bad registration through and you lose out as a result that we will compensate you.
So what can you do?
If you're a solicitor, use the electronic services as much as possible - it reduces the time we have to spend on those tasks and lets us get on with making registrations. Take a bit of care in lodging applications, as every query raised prevents another application being done.
If you're not, bear in mind that in general (with certain exceptions) you have the legal protection of registration from the date you lodge the application. Once it's in (and in order for registration) you are fine, so there's no need to panic about it not being completed. If you do need it completed urgently for some reason, get in touch and we will get it done.
j26 - thanks for that, now I understand it a bit better and it's great to get feedback from someone on this inside. I guess that now registrations will be coming down it will help to clear the backlog. Another question, what percentage of documents lodged are incorrect? And what is the single biggest reason for them being rejected? Maybe ye do statistics on this?
I made an error in my calculations 2002 to 2008 is 6 years. Not so long...
I made an error in my calculations 2002 to 2008 is 6 years. Not so long...
I did a survey myself a few years back in one particular county, but I can't really discuss it (Official Secrets Act and all that). Suffice to say the abolition of land certs and certs of charge will obviously make a difference.
S
Stressball
Guest
I am in the process of buying a house and our solicitor just recieved the contracts and he said that the house hasn't been land registered. The house is about 10 years old. Every other house in the estate is registered its just the one we want to buy. The mapping is not done on it either. Our loan offer is only valid for a further 3 months (one of the last 95% mortgages) so i'm worried that this will severley delay things and we may miss out. Do you think it could be registered in time?
Any advice would be appreciated
Any advice would be appreciated
Registration doesn't necessarily have to be completed for your purchase to complete. Your solicitor just has to be satisfied that registration will be completed by the vendor and get the necessary guarantees. Has your solicitor told you why it hasn't been registered yet?
The land doesn't have to be registered in the Land Registry to be sold - the solicitor can investigate the title deeds and determine whether you would get good title. It's then done by deed of conveyance rather than transfer, and you can then register afterwards it if you want (indeed you may have to in certain counties).
It's also possible that there is an application pending to register the original purchaser, in which case, as long as the application is in order, you can proceed on the basis that the person is entitled to be registered as owner, and the sale can go ahead.
It should delay nothing unless there's a problem that needs registration to cure it. If registration genuinely needs to be done urgently in a situation like that, it can be done. Just get in contact with the relevant section (and be nice to the person you get talking to - it works wonders
).Could I just add to this thread. A client has just been told that latest in a number of reasons for the delay in transferring their house to them from their late spouse ( deceased 5 years ) is that the Land Registry are computerising their system and that nothing should be expected for another several months at least due to delays this computerisation is causing. Can any of our learned legal contributors confirm that this is indeed happening and causing delays or is this just another fob off.