The Horseman
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The other, more general, problem (I may have voiced it earlier in this thread or elsewhere on these forums - if I did, apologies) on social housing is that the ballooning cost of it is becoming impossible for governments to sustain.
It was manageable enough when a unit could be built for £50-60k, or even €100k, but with new builds now seeming to start at €250k, exclusive of site cost, it is a huge cost.
100,000 new units would barely meet demand but would cost €25 billion, before a cent is added to reflect site cost, contingencies ,inflation etc.
It was manageable enough when a unit could be built for £50-60k, or even €100k, but with new builds now seeming to start at €250k, exclusive of site cost, it is a huge cost.
Never mind the maintenance costs..
Where did I say they would have to move far away from where they currently live?Yes and I said,
So being well able to afford to buy a home does not guarantee that you will be able to buy a home. If your job is in Dublin, your wifes job in Dublin, your kids going to school in Dublin, your elderly parents that need looking after in Dublin, your sick brother or sister is in Dublin, your GAA club is in Dublin, your friends and associates are in Dublin, but the only affordable home available for you to buy is in Mullingar, do you not think that if someone is going to buy a home, that they at least have some right to choose where they want to buy?
I make no distinction here, unlike you, between social housing tenants and non-social housing tenants. If either or both, can 'well afford to buy their own home', then both have a right to at least make the choice of where it is that they want to live (seeing as they are paying for it and all) dont you think? Or do you think that only social housing tenants who can 'well afford to buy a their own home' should be compelled to buy any home that they can afford, regardless of its suitability? Are you for real?
Of course not. I've continuously said that rents should be ties to income but increase as income increases until it gets to the market rate.Im pretty sure you wouldnt expect a family on €20K a year to be paying €1000 pm if that what the prevailing market rate is?
It varies from area to area (just another costly complexity) but one-sixth of income is way too low for higher earners. That means that someone with an income of €80,000 in a council house in Crumlin only pays a maximum of €1100 a month and probably far less while their lower income neighbour in private rental accommodation with the same family circumstances is paying well over €2000 a month.as far as Im aware the Differential Rent Scheme applies a rent of one-sixth of income (subject to other considerations such as how many adults occupy the house, how many are at work, care for the elderly etc).
So being well able to afford to buy a home does not guarantee that you will be able to buy a home. If your job is in Dublin, your wifes job in Dublin, your kids going to school in Dublin, your elderly parents that need looking after in Dublin, your sick brother or sister is in Dublin, your GAA club is in Dublin, your friends and associates are in Dublin, but the only affordable home available for you to buy is in Mullingar, do you not think that if someone is going to buy a home, that they at least have some right to choose where they want to buy?
So, unlike Purple, your issue isn't just with people who can "well afford to buy", your issue is with those who cannot afford a place of their own also? You think taking people out of social housing who can't afford to stay anywhere is a good idea so that people in emergency accommodation can be looked after? So the low paid workers who cannot afford anywhere else can presumably move into the emergency accommodation?
Yes, so what? I'm in my fifth home now, I intend to settle down now. I pay for it myself, but if it were social housing I don't think I could fathom many more changes.
Have you anything to back this up? Again, I ask you, Cork City has reported a 50% refusal rate in their offers of accommodation. I'm guessing suitability is a key factor here, particularly when it comes to employment opportunities.
I hate to put a pin in the bubble of your 5yr Plan - but a married couple, both working in low income employment, she a hairdresser, he a cleaner in a factory. They occupy a social house, earn €55k a year are in their mid 50's. They have two kids, 18yr old girl who has aspirations of being a model, 20 yr son apprentice mechanic. Both living at home in the social house all their lives. The son qualifies as a mechanic and now earning a wage decides with his girlfriend to move into together in private rental accommodation. They decide they want to stand on their own two feet, how good is that? The daughter, hired by a modelling agency gets a contract to work in England for six months.
Both kids have flown the nest.
You send your assessor around to the home as part of your State controlled 5yr plan. The assessor decides that this 3 bed terrace is not suitable anymore (too big) and that in the grip of a housing crisis others are more needy. The State assessor orders them to move to a more suitable 1 bed apartment, or buy a place of their own. Buying or renting in the private market is out of the question with today's prices and the banks won't give them a mortgage in their mid 50's on the incomes they have, or what mortgage they would give, wouldn't buy a garden shed in Killiney! The new apartment it's a little further away from where they work, but only two bus rides to and from new home to employment. The 3 bed is now occupied by a family with no income, two kids, but they are more needy!
Six months after the assessment circumstances have changed - the son has broken up with his girlfriend (not his fault, she dumped him) neither can afford the apartment on their own so they have to leave, the daughter discovered the modelling agency in the UK was not all that it was cracked up to be, broken dreams (stuff like this does happen).
Both the son and the daughter return home only to find that you, under your plan, have evicted their parents to a one bed apt. There is nowhere now for them to stay. The son is looking for alternative accommodation but by himself he is in the same boat as all the other first time buyers. The daughter has no income until offered a trainee hairdresser position for €8 ph. But as she has nowhere to stay, as her home has been taken, she and her brother qualify for social housing and in turn are placed in emergency accommodation.
The family that now occupy the house have no employment - why should they? They don't need to work, they have been gifted a free house by the taxpayer which they can stay in for the rest of their lives and the working family, the mother, father, son and daughter have all been rightly screwed. But what's worse is, the house next door to one they live in was also assessed. At the time of the assessment it was fully occupied, but six months on, the two children in that house flew the nest. It is now perfectly suitable for the working family to return home (albeit next door) and live together again. But as your plan is to assess the accommodation needs of each family every 5yrs, then this house won't be assessed for another 4.5 yrs - shame!
Great, I'm guessing you have another back of the envelope solution to the drug problem that has plagues Western societies for the last 50yrs or so. When you have all the drug dealers in prison come back and we can discuss how we can accommodate the homeless more.
Well, in fairness to you, Horseman, you have at least moved somewhat insofar that you are proposing a scheme with 'choices'. I do think there is an underlying assumption that most people in social are on the pigs back, free accommodation, don't work, or work very little, prime location in city centres etc....some people think its like winning the lottery, or its all one big gift courtesy of the taxpayer (blinded to the fact that working people in social housing are 'the taxpayer')
The reality is of course far from that, it is a complex business which cannot be resolved on the pages of AAM.
http://files.nesc.ie/nesc_secretari...h_Social_and_Affordable_Housing_Provision.pdf
None of the proposals made so far will go anyway to resolving the current crisis in any reasonable time-frame. In fact I would argue that all of the proposals would get tied up in administrative and legal tangles that would in fact cost the taxpayer more, in other words - they are self-defeating proposals.
I was asked to suggest something constructive -
From page 3
You said it. You would rather people stopped working, stopped educating, lived at home with their mammies & daddies all their adult lives rather than see a spare room or two in a social house go unoccupied for all the social injustice this would cause (or rather how much it is costing "your taxes". After all, you did say;
Your link supports many of the points made by the capitalists pigs here. The authors must also be capitalist pigs.The reality is of course far from that, it is a complex business which cannot be resolved on the pages of AAM.
http://files.nesc.ie/nesc_secretari...h_Social_and_Affordable_Housing_Provision.pdf
Eh, is that not everyone???? I wish my career guidance teacher had included the option of social housing when I was younger...Would probably have ended up in a much better location with a shorter commute than where I live now.....
I think that's the nub of it; I fundamentally disagree that giving an adult a house for life is the same thing as providing funding to keep a child in school or a to keep a museum open.Its not a handout, it’s a public service. No different to putting your kids through the state school system, regardless of your income. No different receiving healthcare through the public system, regardless of your income. No different to availing of subsidised public transport, regardless of your income. No different to availing of all other public services from museums and art galleries, public playing pitches for sports clubs, to the justice and law & order services, to the emergency services…housing is simply a public need for everybody.
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