Tenant Issue

L

living

Registered User
Messages
16
Hi,

I'm hoping that someone can give me some advice if possible.
I have a house thats been rented out to 4 people for a couple of years.
I decided to give them their notice a few months back due to the fact that they did not want to pay the rental increase (market value) that I had requested. After having given them their notice over the phone, a few weeks later (on the date they were due to leave) one of the tenants got on to me and insisted on sending them the notice to quit along with 42 days notice as was their right.

As much as I was annoyed about this (why didnt he tell me this 6 weeks earlier when I gave them the verbal notice), I did as he had asked. His official date to leave was last Tuesday (after the 42 day notice period). He posted me a letter that arrived on Friday saying he was away for 2 weeks and wouldnt be moving out till he came back. In the meantime the other 3 tenants all left about 2 to 3 weeks ago as they were fighting with this guy.

So effectively he will be remaining in the property for 9 days after his official notice to quit day.

The PRTB have been no help whatsoever, just telling me to send in a dispute form.

Is there anything I can do about this at all?
I've been told I cant go into the property. I don't know whether this is a legal thing or not or more of a just in case he claims I've stolen anything.

As a small time landlord or an extremely well kept modern property, who is just barely covering my mortgage with the rental income, I cant afford this to be happening. Surely what he is doing is illegal? Even if it is, I cant afford a solicitor.

Any advice qould be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and sorry for the long post.
 
Once this man is gone and you re-renting the property? Is this why you're so cheesed about him taking the mickey? I would have thought that he'd be liable for a further 9 days rent either way - can you not deduct the further 9 days rent from his security deposit? Have you got a key to the property? If so, could you not enter the premises with a garda and pack up his belongings? Don't know the legal ramifications of doing this - but at least you couldn't be accused of stealing or damaging his property.
 
yes. I had viewings lined up as well as having organised cleaners etc for after they had moved out. All of these have now had to be rescheduled.
I don't know where I stand legally about entering the premises which is why I'm unwilling to do so.
 
Could you not have a chat with a local gard and see what he thinks? If a gard was willing to enter the property with you then you could box up all his stuff and place in a local storage facility - when he pays the extra rent (to the day that you removed his stuff) then he gets the key? Bit lousy him sending you a letter and expecting you to wear it. Can you not ring this guy?
 
actually. its slightly more confusing.

The 42 day notice period took the tenants up to June 5th, however during this the rent was due on May 15th. Presumably as it was direct debit, the tenants paid up a full months rent after which they were told they would receive the difference back along with their deposit. (difference being the excess they paid between June 5th and June 15th). I dont know if this makes a difference.

Yes I have spoken to him over the phone and his attitude was one of 'tough cookies, like it or lump it'.
 
Righto. From his prospective he's paid upto and including 14th June - this could be the reason he's being obstreperous. Sounds like you may have to just wear it then. I'd make sure that I was there on moving day to ensure that he wasn't taking more than just his belongings - if he's prepared to be this petty - who knows what he could do? Don't suppose the security deposit from 4 years back is going to cover much if he decided to trash the place.
 
Unfortunately, you didn't issue the notice in the correct form in the first place. It's not up to the tenant to remind you of your obligations in this regard. In fairness to him, he may not have even been aware of them when you first gave notice orally - he may only have realised having checked afterwards. Just put this down to experience and do it by the book next time.

From your description, it doesn't seem like you'll be at the loss of any rent, so what's the problem? I can't agree with suggestions of involving the Gardaí - this is a civil matter, they wouldn't want to know.

Bottom line, these guys have been your tenants for two years. Presumably they've paid all the rent due over that period - you haven't said otherwise. There's also been no indication by you of any damage to the property. Now you're getting exercised because they're not leaving according to your timetable, as a result of your own mistake. Your issues with your mortgage are none of their concern. As a landlord myself, I really don't have any sympathy for your position.
 
gonk said:
Unfortunately, you didn't issue the notice in the correct form in the first place. It's not up to the tenant to remind you of your obligations in this regard. In fairness to him, he may not have even been aware of them when you first gave notice orally - he may only have realised having checked afterwards. Just put this down to experience and do it by the book next time.
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I wasnt disputing this. I took this on the chin and chalked it down to experience.

gonk said:
Bottom line, these guys have been your tenants for two years. Presumably they've paid all the rent due over that period - you haven't said otherwise. There's also been no indication by you of any damage to the property. Now you're getting exercised because they're not leaving according to your timetable, as a result of your own mistake. Your issues with your mortgage are none of their concern. As a landlord myself, I really don't have any sympathy for your position.
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With the exception of 2 occasions over the two years, the rent has been paid on time. Their original leaving date was May 15th. New tenants from May 16th onwards should have been paying an increased amount, so I'm at a loss. (my problem..i know). Their official and legal date for leaving after the 42 day notice period was Jun 5th but instead he is dictating when he will be leaving. And currently he said he is leaving on June 15th. It's not my timetable, it's the law. Out of courtesy he should have asked to remain until June 15th. I would have obliged. But because he only landed it on me a few days before he was legally due to leave I have had to cancel a number of people.

This isn't an issue about mortgage, I was trying to get across the point that I havent given them one bit of hassle in the two years, have always kept the house in excellent condition for them, and even overlooked the two occasions where they were in excess of 2 weeks late with the rent.

What if on June 15th he tells me he isnt going to move out till July 15th, the August, September etc?
My point is as a landlord I dont have any say in my own property.
 
living said:
After having given them their notice over the phone, a few weeks later (on the date they were due to leave) one of the tenants got on to me and insisted on sending them the notice to quit along with 42 days notice as was their right.
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Your mistake. As a landlord you have an obligation to inform yourself of the tenancy laws. It sounds like you never bothered reading them. Read here for future reference: http://www.prtb.ie/act.htm

living said:
He posted me a letter that arrived on Friday saying he was away for 2 weeks and wouldnt be moving out till he came back. In the meantime the other 3 tenants all left about 2 to 3 weeks ago as they were fighting with this guy. So effectively he will be remaining in the property for 9 days after his official notice to quit day.
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OK what he is doing is out of order but given that it's a mere 9 days it's not really that bad. Get back at him by refusing to give him a reference. If he wanted to be really awkward he could just refuse to move out and stop paying. It would take you circa 6 months to get an eviction order against him. Sounds like he's pretty annoyed with you. You must have jacked the rent up by at least 20%. I'm guessing you prob looked at daft and see that rent prices are higher at the moment and are charging according to that. However in all likely hood these prices are temporarily elevated due to a reduction of supply (people holding off buying, landlords removing prob from rental market to try to sell) and will drop again over the next year or so. You could have negotiated with them and got a smaller increase (given that you're probably going to loose most of your increase now with the vacancy period and have no guarantee of the quality of new tenants).

living said:
Is there anything I can do about this at all?
I've been told I cant go into the property. I don't know whether this is a legal thing or not or more of a just in case he claims I've stolen anything.
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This is tenancy law. You can enter the premesis for inspection or repair purposes only, provided you give adaquate notice to the tenant and agree a time suitable to them. Again as a landlord you have an obligation to familiarise yourself with these laws. Read the act in the previous link.

living said:
As a small time landlord or an extremely well kept modern property, who is just barely covering my mortgage with the rental income, I cant afford this to be happening. Surely what he is doing is illegal? Even if it is, I cant afford a solicitor.
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Tough. You should keep your finances in better order. Most new landlords have to subsidise their properties (or at least properties bought in the last 3 years) due to interest rate repayments being higher than rental charges.

Please ignore all sugestions above about entering the premesis. This will get you in a lot of trouble with the PRTB and a large fine from them also. The gardai will tell you it's a civil matter anyway, as pointed out in the previous post.

It's 9 days for gods sake. Get over it it could be a lot worse. I suspect this situation might have been caused by your greed/thirst for higher rents. A bird in the hand !!!
 
living said:
What if on June 15th he tells me he isnt going to move out till July 15th, the August, September etc?
My point is as a landlord I dont have any say in my own property.
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Make a complaint to the PRTB. Do not, as has been suggested, enter the property and remove all the tenant's belongings - this would constitute an illegal eviction, notwithstanding that you have now issued an valid notice to terminate the tenancy.

See here for more info:

http://www.prtb.ie/act.htm

You do have a say in your own property, but your rights as a landlord are to an extent circumscribed by the tenant's rights. Both as a landlord myself and a former tenant, I think the new rules brought in with the PRTB are generally reasonable, and go some way to creating a fair balance between landlord and tenant. Previously, the balance of rights and obligations was hugely in the landlord's favour.
 
living said:
This isn't an issue about mortgage, I was trying to get across the point that I havent given them one bit of hassle in the two years, have always kept the house in excellent condition for them, and even overlooked the two occasions where they were in excess of 2 weeks late with the rent.

What if on June 15th he tells me he isnt going to move out till July 15th, the August, September etc?
My point is as a landlord I dont have any say in my own property.
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You're a landlord. You're in business. You provide a service. Your clients don't always pay on time. They might push their luck etc. If you were a shop owner it's likely people would steal your goods. That's a cost of business. You can't be serious with your hard done by rant. All the problems/costs/anguish you've outlined is a cost of doing business/being a landlord.

You do have a say in you're property but you handed over rights to exclusive occupation(as per tenancy act) to that property to the tenants that you rented to. You have a right to that property again when the move out. If they break this you have to deal with them through the courts or PRTB. This takes time. Again a cost of doing business.
 
I think you are getting unresonable... The guy has paid until the 15th June anyway, so you are not out of pocket..
If you continue this way, the guy may even stay and not pay anymore.. It will take months for PRTB to resolve the dispute, meantime you have to pay the mortgage instalment.
 
robd said:
Your mistake. As a landlord you have an obligation to inform yourself of the tenancy laws. It sounds like you never bothered reading them. Read here for future reference:
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i did read them and ive already agreed it was my mistake. this wasnt my point though.

robd said:
It's 9 days for gods sake. Get over it it could be a lot worse. I suspect this situation might have been caused by your greed/thirst for higher rents. A bird in the hand !!!
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a lot of people seem to assume that because I rent out a property I must be some sort of ogre! I have consistently undercharged the tenants. Having increased the rent last year, we came to a compromise and I ended up only charging them a (very) modest increase of 3%

This years request for an increase was for 7% and is still 8% less than the market value for similar properties on that road.
I’m entitled to increase rent up to the market value each year.

The dispute about rent isn’t the issue here. The other 3 tenants left without any complaints about the rent or the house, other than to complain to me about the other guy.
They have told me that his reason for staying is because he bought a new house that has been delayed a number of weeks by his builder. His new date for moving into that house is now June 17th. Apparently he has been pushed out by the builders a number of times, each time it seems he then decides to cause hassle for me. So it’s not about the rental increase for him as he was going to be leaving anyway. It’s just purely convenient for him to stay in the house until his place is ready.

It might seem like just 9 days to you, but when you had workmen and cleaners and viewings lined up, it’s a major inconvenience.
It seems likely that if his builders come back and say his house wont be ready till July, he will stay in the house till July.
I’m trying to get across my concern for the fact that I don’t seem to have any rights at all. As I said earlier, if he had been up front with me and told me he was waiting for his house to be ready I would have had absolutely no problem with him staying, rent paid, till it was ready.
 
bacchus said:
I think you are getting unresonable... The guy has paid until the 15th June anyway, so you are not out of pocket..
If you continue this way, the guy may even stay and not pay anymore.. It will take months for PRTB to resolve the dispute, meantime you have to pay the mortgage instalment.
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This is my point exactly. It would appear that tenants can stay in rented accomodation rent free for months on end if they decide to do so.

An earlier post likened renting to running a shop and that stealing from a shop goes part and parcel with it. However when someone in a shop is caught stealing, he can be prosecuted, and the shop can continue trading

However when a tenant decides to stay rent free in a house, he can do so if he so wishes without fear of anything happeneing to him, whilst the landlord cannot continue 'trading'
 
living said:
This is my point exactly. It would appear that tenants can stay in rented accomodation rent free for months on end if they decide to do so.

However when a tenant decides to stay rent free in a house, he can do so if he so wishes without fear of anything happeneing to him, whilst the landlord cannot continue 'trading'
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This is not so. If your tenant stays on without paying rent, you can pursue him for the rent via the PRTB and/or courts. It will be slow-going to be sure, but you will eventually succeed. The PRTB process, whilst, slow, is also low-cost.
 
I am a landlord myself and have had problems with tenants in the past. In October I filed a dispute with the PRTB to attempt to recover the cost of repairs of damage over and above normal wear and tear that were not fully covered by the deposit. The claim is about €3,000. About 3 weeks after filing the dispute with the PRTB along with my cheque for their fee, they wrote back to advise that they have a backlog in their system and that it will take at least 10 weeks before they can look at the matter. Not the most efficient of systems. I don't know if I will even be able to track down the tenant if the PRTB rule in my favour. It could all be a waste of time dealing with the red tape!
 
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