Tenancy not registered with RTB

C

CuriousCats

Registered User
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11
FACTS
  • Tenant with 14 year tenancy - not registered with RTB, no tenancy agreement, no rent book/mthly rent paid in cash/no receipts given
  • Tenants request to have utilities changed to own name in previous years was refused
  • Two family members moved in (with house-owners agreement) March 2020
  • House-owner wishes to sell house, Auctioneers now request all three sign a Licence Agreement between house-owner and themselves dated 31/10/23 to 31/10/2024
  • Auctioneers drafted a letter for all three to sign requesting (i) a Tenancy Agreement from 1/11/2024, (ii) permission to remain in house and (iii) to register the tenancy with RTB
  • The house-owner is a family friend thereby making situation awkward
QUERIES
  1. Will signing the documentation as requested impact on the tenant’s rights as a 14 year in-situ tenant (e.g. notice period, issues regarding recent documented tenancy vs 14-year undocumented tenancy etc.)?
  2. Can the two family members who moved in during 2020 be a licensee of the house owner?
  3. Would potential RTB advocacy be based on the signed documents (if signed) vs no signed records (there may be text messages regarding collection of rent, servicing of gas boiler etc.)?
  4. Is Auctioneer enabling house-owner’s tax evasion??
For information:
Notice of Termination not issued yet.
RTB unable to answer my queries, suggested to seek legal advice
Threshold advice was ambiguous

Would appreciate any thoughts....thank you in advance.
 
Who are the two family members? Tenants family or property owners family?

How many people are presently living in the property? Are they a family group or unrelated?

Does your rent include all utilities?

Property owners tax isn't your concern.
 
Replying to DannyBoyD....
1) Tenants family (i.e. daughter and grand-daughter - both adults)
2) Three people live in the property
3) Rent does not include utilities (€500 is paid each month to house-owner for electricity + gas) in addition to 'rent'. Bins and internet are paid for by tenants
4) Yes, I know! just an observation :)
 
So would it be fair to say that a friend had a gaff and offered it to the tenant as a casual place to stay and the owner charged some rent. Then as he was paying the bills, he asked him for money for them. This tenant stayed long term and then the tenant asked could he put up his daughter and her child for a while for a bit more rent which spiralled into what it is today.
 
elcato said:
So would it be fair to say that a friend had a gaff and offered it to the tenant as a casual place to stay and the owner charged some rent. Then as he was paying the bills, he asked him for money for them. This tenant stayed long term and then the tenant asked could he put up his daughter and her child for a while for a bit more rent which spiralled into what it is today.
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No, it would not be fair to put it that way as it was not a 'casual place to stay'. It was an informal (i.e. nothing recorded on paper) agreement but it would have been understood the house is the tenants home. In the early years house-owner, on receipt of electricity and gas bills, informed tenant of amount owed and it was paid. In recent years the house-owner requested a monthly amount of €500 be paid along with rent to 'cover the two bills'.
 
CuriousCats said:
No, it would not be fair to put it that way as it was not a 'casual place to stay'. It was an informal (i.e. nothing recorded on paper) agreement but it would have been understood the house is the tenants home.
Click to expand...

Sorry, bad choice of words by me. I meant informal.
 
I'm guessing the Auctioneer is trying to avoid any potential buyer not being able to raise the rent ? Is it in a RPZ ?
 
CuriousCats said:
yes!
Click to expand...
  1. Will signing the documentation as requested impact on the tenant’s rights as a 14 year in-situ tenant (e.g. notice period, issues regarding recent documented tenancy vs 14-year undocumented tenancy etc.)?
  2. Can the two family members who moved in during 2020 be a licensee of the house owner?
  3. Would potential RTB advocacy be based on the signed documents (if signed) vs no signed records (there may be text messages regarding collection of rent, servicing of gas boiler etc.)?
any thoughts as to my queries? please and thanks....
 
CuriousCats said:
  1. Will signing the documentation as requested impact on the tenant’s rights as a 14 year in-situ tenant (e.g. notice period, issues regarding recent documented tenancy vs 14-year undocumented tenancy etc.)?
  2. Can the two family members who moved in during 2020 be a licensee of the house owner?
  3. Would potential RTB advocacy be based on the signed documents (if signed) vs no signed records (there may be text messages regarding collection of rent, servicing of gas boiler etc.)?
any thoughts as to my queries? please and thanks....
Click to expand...
What's your objective here?
 
CuriousCats said:
Bins and internet are paid for by tenants
Click to expand...
Ok

Can you get a record of when you started to pay for waste collection / broadband. Would you have bank or other statements show this property as your address.

It will help support your 14 year tenancy claim.

Not having a written lease or registration with RTB is the property owners concern, provided you can establish this has been your home for 14 years & you have clearly paid rent, I believe you are covered by the relevant legislation.

So, I would not sign anything at this point.

Property owner can still serve termination but you are entitled to 6 months notice.
 
T McGibney said:
What's your objective here?
Click to expand...
To find out the tenants rights in this particular situation and should they sign the documentation as requested by the Auctioneers would it be detrimental to and potential requested RTB advocacy (e.g. notice to be given etc.).
While of course I appreciate the house is the house-owners to sell, as no doubt you are aware, there is a dire shortage of both affordable rental properties and social houses.
 
CuriousCats said:
To find out the tenants rights in this particular situation and should they sign the documentation as requested by the Auctioneers would it be detrimental to and potential requested RTB advocacy (e.g. notice to be given etc.).
While of course I appreciate the house is the house-owners to sell, as no doubt you are aware, there is a dire shortage of both affordable rental properties and social houses.
Click to expand...
You want to contest the termination? How much is the rent for the three of you?
 
Bronte said:
You want to contest the termination? How much is the rent for the three of you?
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No I'm sure they won't do that (i.e. dispute the Notice of Termination - once it's valid of course) but I'd just like to ensure they are given the notice they are entitled to.....rent payable slightly less than market rent, though regarding my queries surely that's irrelevant.
 
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