State Pension Non-contributory - capital means

[MonyMony]

Hi folks,

A question on the means test please - specifically capital - for the non-contributory state pension. I have an elderly family member (80s) who receives this pension, which goes directly towards his nursing home fees under the Fair Deal Scheme. He was means tested of course at the time he qualified for this pension (20+ years ago), but I'm a bit unclear as to what counts as 'change of circumstances' re. capital means.

His only capital is a savings account and because the Fair Deal Scheme eats up all the non con. pension payments, none of it goes into this account. However, he also gets a UK pension - which I know is classed as income - and this is paid into the account. The DSP are fully aware and requested an update on that monthly amount recently, so that's all fine and current. His capital would have been almost non existent when first assessed for his Irish state pension years ago, but the UK pension income has obviously built up his bank account balance a bit over the years.

So my question is whether the account balance has to be declared as a 'change of circumstances' to his capital means at some point? Perhaps when it's gone over a certain amount e.g. over the 20k savings allowance when first being means tested?

According to gov.ie
"If you save a portion of your State Pension Non-Contributory each week, these savings will be taken into account as part of your means. Depending on the amount of savings you accumulate, this may result in a reduction in (or revocation of) your pension. You are legally obliged to notify the department within three months of any increase in your means."

It doesn't mention saving a portion of any other pension(?).

Many thanks!

 

[S class]

My guess is that State Pension non contributory is specifically mentioned as a warning to people who qualify, that if they manage to accumulate savings then they could save their way out of qualifing for this pension.

If they managed to save money from any other allowable means that they might have, they would have to declare those savings also.

I don't know if they would be expected to notify extra savings that didn't cause them to exceed 20k.

 

[Forumuser]

It means ANY savings from ANY income. Not only from the NC- but also from the UK or any other pension.

 

[MonyMony]

Thanks both for the reply. It makes sense, but I'm still reading between the lines a bit as to what amount they mean when they say "depending on the amount of savings you accumulate". I just can't see an explicit reference on gov.ie to a figure anywhere when talking about subsequent savings/change of circumstances - I'm guessing it's that 20k + figure set out in the (initial) means test?

 

[S class]

The wording on all matters relating to pensions and Prsi tends to be vague and open to interpretation.

Provided the savings are below 20k, there is no consequence on the means test.
If amounts below this are notified there will be no reduction of the pension, so there is no penalty in not declaring it.

 

[Marsupial]

Thanks both for the reply. It makes sense, but I'm still reading between the lines a bit as to what amount they mean when they say "depending on the amount of savings you accumulate". I just can't see an explicit reference on gov.ie to a figure anywhere when talking about subsequent savings/change of circumstances - I'm guessing it's that 20k + figure set out in the (initial) means test?

You're over-thinking this, and I really don't understand why. It's their ball, their rules, their pitch and they are the referee!

So if you're concerned about something then play bureaucratic tennis by hitting your query over the net to Social Welfare and letting them decide!
That way the ball is in their court and, in my experience, they will normally hit the ball back over the net to you very quickly!

Give it a try - State.NonCon@welfare.ie

 

[MonyMony]

The wording on all matters relating to pensions and Prsi tends to be vague and open to interpretation.

Provided the savings are below 20k, there is no consequence on the means test.
If amounts below this are notified there will be no reduction of the pension, so there is no penalty in not declaring it.

Thanks again (I'd give your post a 'thumbs up', but I can't seem to find that function here!).

His savings have exceeded the 20k at this point, so I can only assume this is the point at which their notified - i.e. the same figure as per the initial means test figures set out in the info. It's just that when they word things like "Depending on the amount of savings you accumulate", or "if the combined value of your savings...increases..." but no figures are included/repeated, then I'd prefer to be able to see what amounts or increases they mean exactly, rather than assuming.

The DSP haven't been directly notified of this (yet), but they were indirectly informed when we sent them the latest UK pension figure he receives i.e. his bank account with current balance was included as proof of the payments.

Thanks

 

[mct1]

See this page from Citizens Information. Under the heading "Capital" it explains what deductions are made if someone goes over the €20k.

 

[Forumuser]

Thanks again (I'd give your post a 'thumbs up', but I can't seem to find that function here!).

His savings have exceeded the 20k at this point, so I can only assume this is the point at which their notified - i.e. the same figure as per the initial means test figures set out in the info. It's just that when they word things like "Depending on the amount of savings you accumulate", or "if the combined value of your savings...increases..." but no figures are included/repeated, then I'd prefer to be able to see what amounts or increases they mean exactly, rather than assuming.

The DSP haven't been directly notified of this (yet), but they were indirectly informed when we sent them the latest UK pension figure he receives i.e. his bank account with current balance was included as proof of the payments.

Thanks

The means test looks pretty clear to me....

Operational Guidelines: State Pension Non-contributory

www.gov.ie

 

[MonyMony]

See this page from Citizens Information. Under the heading "Capital" it explains what deductions are made if someone goes over the €20k.

The means test looks pretty clear to me....

Thanks both. I'm clear on those figures and accessed those documents (and he went through that means test years ago when first being assessed) - it was just a case of trying to clarify/confirm the current situation i.e. if those same figures and calculations apply to the build up over many years of his UK pension into his bank account...which it seems is the case.