Snag List - Legal Right?

Hi all, hope you are doing well and the shopping is done!

My wife and I intend to purchase a two bedroom apt. but have a problem.

We received the contracts today, but have been previously informed by our estate agents that the vendor "will not entertain any additional snag lists," (note that we NEVER had a sng list completed before this and we are first-time buyers).

Our problem is further exasperated by the fact that we received the contracts today, but the vendor's solicitor dated his letter the 9th Dec, so we have to have it signed before the 30th (21 days - strict!).

What I would like to know is: do we have a legal right to have a snag list performed, or does the vendor have a legal right to refuse a snag list from being completed?

What are my rights in this situation?

Any assistance appreciated!

DataLoreB4

Hi DataLoreB4,

This may be an obvious question but surely you are using the services of a solicitor. Can you not put this question to your own solictor that is what your paying them for?

Cheers

Depends on both the wording of the contract and your ability to haggle directly with the developer.

DataLoreB4,
If my understanding of your post is correct you have not carried out any snagging as yet. If this is the case I would be very reluctant to sign any contracts as the builders will do nothing after the contract is signed.
I bought an apartment over a year ago and the whole snagging process took 3 months to complete! I was also given three weeks to snag and sign the contracts. (If this was done I’d get a voucher for some interior design shop worth €1500).
The first time I snagged the apartment there were over 150 snags. When I returned 2 weeks later they had done nothing. I came back a third time and half the snags had been fixed. So I refused to sign the final contracts until everything was finished. Finally after another two visits everything was done except for a balcony door that was broken. I eventually signed the contract on the written understanding that the door would be changed as soon as the builders got a replacement one.
I would get your solicitor on to the builders/vendors and say that the contracts will not be signed until the sagging has been completed to your satisfaction. Do not be bullied by the Estate Agents they only want a quick sale.
- And I still got the voucher even though it took 3 months to close the sale!
Good Luck!
AK

Thank you for all of your replies - much appreciated.

There does not appear to be anything in the contracts stating anything about the snag lists or a provision for them.

I am meeting with my solicitor on Thurday afternoon.

I get the feeling that he is looking for a quick sale too

Also, has anyone heard of or implemented a "withholding" clause? I will decline from signing the contracts until a snag list is completed.

Really I am just looking for the legal terminology so that I do not look stupid in front of the solicitor, and how far I can push the solicitor into forcing the vendor to perform one for us. The apartment is exactly what we are looking for, just not perfected, I do not think.

Is it strange that the bank will not look for a surveyor's report on a new property? I am a little confused about this. Some websites say I definitely need one, others say no. I phoned the bank and when they realised that it was a new property, they said no too. This was unfortunate, as I really wanted to get a surveyor to create both a survey and a snag list report at the same time.

Again thank you all.

DataLoreB4

Presumably you paid your deposit following the viewing of a showhouse.

The purpose of the snag list is to ensure that the builing is of a similar quality.

Hombond or premier will cover structural defects. The contracts will guarantee weathering, seals to windows and other defects. However, neither cover standard of finishes.

Regardless of legal position I would be extremly cautious about buying an apartment without the oppertunity of having an expert give it the once over. Its not a factory produced item, finishes vary depending on which gang of trademen worked on it or when it was done (friday afternoon plastering leaves a lot to be desired).

If the builder wont let you in he is probably aware of a drop in standards on this unit.

Hi MHSpurs,

We actually got to view the apartment we are purchasing, but only view - we have been denied an inspection.

If he is aware of a drop in standards, then he should either drop the price of the apartment or fix it! Either way I don't mind!

What do you mean by "HomeBond or Premier" will cover the structural defects? In the contracts sent out, one has the title: "The Premier Guarantee for Ireland" - is this what you are talking about?

Cheers

DataLoreB4

I would personally be very suspissios if you weren't allowed a snag list and would inform the builder that unless you have a professionally snag done you wont be buying and casually drop the - are you trying to hide something , i amsure u aren't but you know what solicitors are like.

Hi DataLore B4

I will echo what others have said, you should have a snaglist carried before signing anything.

The wording used “will not entertain any additional snag lists”.

What it means is that you can only submit one snag list on your house, if you make the re-inspection you are only to amend the orginal snag list, not submit a brand new list

Here is a link
[broken link removed]

It is covered under term 5 and has been deemed by the Office of the Director of Consumer affairs as an unfair term. So the builder shouldn’t have this term in your contract and your solicitor should be able to sort it out, if not there are plenty out there who will fight your corner tooth and nail.

To quote the ODCA

“It is submitted that this term is unfair in that it limits the Consumer to submitting one snag list only. There is nothing in the Standard Building Agreement that limits the number of snag lists to one. It is submitted that if snag lists are furnished within the specified time they should be accepted by the Builder regardless of how numerous they are. Again this term seeks to limit the liability of the Builder to the Consumer in both an unfair and imbalanced way”.

Best of luck and let us know how you get on.

Kind Regards

Fintan

http://www.HomeSnag.ie

My understanding from my recent experiences is that you can hold up closing/final payment if there is a major structural defect. You should go to the developer and demand that you be allowed to carry out an inspection. It may be that they just want to close you out rapid (they all do). However, it is far too important of a process to take chances - as it could also be that they know there are some Class A cockups in the build.

Hi DataLore B4, I know you said that you are meeting your solicitor on thursday...but you should phone/email him on the matter as there won't be much work done on thursday and the builders will be gone on holidays if you need any answers. All this should have been sorted out by your solicitor..thats what you are paying him for..so use him. If a snag list needs to be done, get your engineer to do it, he can go down site and perform it without you..you will only have one snag list, after that the engineer will check that they are done off the list. You are paying these people to do a service for you...use them and stop worry about them yourself, they won't be over xmas.

You need to decide your own bottom line. Are you prepared to walk away if you don't get to snag the property?

When a builder says they will not entertain any "additional snag lists" what this generally implies is that the purchaser may compile 1 snag list and 1 only, additional snag lists (with new items not previously included on the original snag list) will not be considered. This is my reading of the situation and indeed this is company policy with the building contractor for whom I work. It would appear that the condition was not clearly worded or explained to you.

Thank you all for replying - your advice is really appreciated.

RainyDay - yes I am prepared to walk away!

Fintan - I am quoting that very extract to my estate agent this morning, and already sent an e-mail yesterday to the OCDA - awaiting a reply.

But allow me to clear up a few things, as I may have been lacking in my original postings.

" The builders are now finished in this apartment and will not be entertaining additional snag lists "

This is a quote from an extract of an e-mail sent from the developers to our estate agent (we do not know who sent it to him, or where it is sourced from) dated Nov 28.

The frustrating part of this is WE NEVER GOT TO MAKE AN INITIAL SNAG LIST IN THE FIRST PLACE! (that's better!)

And if there was an initial one, we were never told about it!

A little bit of history: This is an apartment we are buying, and we paid €2,000 depost sometime around the week of Oct 24, but we were never told about the refusal to permit a snag list until the e-mail received from our estate agent, dated Nov 28!!!

The apartment was already completed before we got to view it, but previous purchasers were not able to secure a mortgage (so we were told), so it went back on sale again, hence my wife and I getting to view it. We have never met the engineer, builders, developers or architects on this project, and do not think that we will at this time. However we have the CAD drawings and list of materials used as part of the contract materials (received last Monday).

I rang the bank yesterday, clearing up a few items of documentation, and just casually asked why whould they loan to me x amount when they do not need a surveyor's report (as it is a new apartment) - she put me on hold to speak to her legal team, and came back only to say it was policy [does this seem a little starnge to anyone, or is it just me?] If they actually NEEDED a surveyor's report, I could have found someone to do both the survey report and the snag list at the same time!

Our solicitor is reluctant to discuss this issue by e-mail or 'phone, and this has made me suspicious, hence why I am seeking advice from those in the know, i.e. all of you!

Again thank you, and of course I will keep you all posted!

If the apartment has already have been snagged by the people who pulled out, would the solicitor be able to get a copy of that snaglist from the builders solicitors?

It's possible that that the apartment if fine, but the builders won't go through the snagging process again, since they'd only be asked to fix the things they've already managed to persuade the first buyer that they won't fix.

If it's snagged already they should at least allow you to get it inspected, since if you pull out the next buyer will be doing that anyway.

I think ashambles has hit the nail on the end.

Also dataloreb4 a surveyors report is usually only carried out on second hand property, which is probably why the bank don't require you to produce one.

Regards

Fintan

www.HomeSnag.ie

ashambles said:

If the apartment has already have been snagged by the people who pulled out, would the solicitor be able to get a copy of that snaglist from the builders solicitors?

It's possible that that the apartment if fine, but the builders won't go through the snagging process again, since they'd only be asked to fix the things they've already managed to persuade the first buyer that they won't fix.

If it's snagged already they should at least allow you to get it inspected, since if you pull out the next buyer will be doing that anyway.

Click to expand...

This is not strange as such, just the vendors trying to be smart! They have lost out on a purchaser already and have probably been scalded by this, therefore they are selling the property as is and are not interested in receiving a snag list from you and having to go back in their with their team to deal with any matters which may crop up!

Now for you this is not good because you weren't the one who previously messed them about and you should be entitled to carry out a snag list to see that all matters are in order, at least if they are not willing to come back to fix silly little things you could decide to deal with them yourself and have the peace of mind that nothing major is wrong!

Unfortunately you are stuck between a rock and a hard place! Their attitude is take it or leave it!

Will they find it easy to sell the property? Maybe this is why they are being bullies about it too. Mind you, no one in their right mind would buy the place without having it checked over.

If you decide to sign contracts you need to tell your solicitor you are signing strictly subject to you being allowed to carry out a snag list and maybe then meet half way with the developer - i.e. if the jobs are small ones you deal with them yourself - I know you shouldnt have to as such, but he is not looking at you as the original purchaser and perhaps the original people did have snagging done and he now has it up for sale "as is".

Really depends on how much you want the property!

Phewwwww! Hope I didnt waffle on too much and that you get my drift!

BTW, there is no legal right for either of you in this case. He is selling as is and its his property to sell. It just might make matters difficult and lengthy for him to sell it, but you know someone will eventually take it as is if they want it bad enough!

I wouldn't buy the new apt without having the opportunity to do a snag list. Perhaps, the last purchaser came across something that the builder wouldn't fix. At that stage when builder and purchaser can't come to agreement the builder can issue the purchaser a closing notice and perhaps the previous purchaser decided to pull out.

Sounds strange to me that they won't allow a snag. If the apartment is okay they should let snagger in and they shouldn't find a thing wrong with it. Anything that is wrong should be so minor that they could be fixed in half a day.

Survey and valuation are done for second hand property. Snag list and valuation report are done for new property.