Side step Eircom with municipal Wi-Fi ?

[runner]

Looking at this link from canada.
With one of the lowest penetrations of Broadband in Europe due to monopoly of the 'last mile' by Eircom, should we do likewise here.
Might also take some of the steam out of buying and selling Eircom as well!
[broken link removed]

 

[ClubMan]

Some people are already doing it. See IrishWAN. A colleague donated his services recently to help set up such a system using long range 802.11a (c. 15 miles range) backbone to the connecting ISP and local 802.11b distribution to individual houses. Apart from voluntary donations of services/time some of the cost is covered by the Government [broken link removed] grant scheme.

 

[getoffthepot]

Some people are already doing it. See IrishWAN. A colleague donated his services recently to help set up such a system using long range 802.11a (c. 15 miles range) backbone to the connecting ISP and local 802.11b distribution to individual houses. Apart from voluntary donations of services/time some of the cost is covered by the Government [broken link removed] grant scheme.

Are these areas getting it for free and if so why do the rest of us have to pay.?

 

[ClubMan]

My understanding is that the areas in question have no access to broadband (with the possible exception of satellite), they can get a grant to cover some of the costs of the setup, people (like my colleague and the people he deals with) volunteer their technical and other services for free, the users pay a subscription fee to cover ongoing running and maintenance costs. Seems reasonable to me. There is nothing stopping people who are so inclined setting something similar up in their own area/community albeit without the grants I presume. Of course it will involve some hard work.

 

[Capaill]

I wonder if there are any legal considerations to take into account when setting up such a scheme. In effect this becomes a mini-ISP and there may be issues regarding acceptable usage, data retention issues etc.

C

 

[ClubMan]

I'm not sure but note that such schemes ultimately hook into a "real" ISP with a connection to the backbone (e.g. INEX). Perhaps "community" services are exempt? Or nobody has thought about the issues? I must ask my colleague but he's more focused on the technical rather than administrative issues involved to be honest. I know of several people who share their wireless access to broadband connectivity with others (e.g. neighbours) which is the same thing on a small scale (and possibly something precluded by the tersm & conditions of the ISP agreement).

 

[TarfHead]

Ever heard of Wimax ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4785742.stm

"Wimax is billed as a successor to the much shorter range wi-fi technology.

Whereas wi-fi range can be measured in yards, Wimax could potentially reach a few kilometres in cities and 16km (10 miles) in open country. "

 

[runner]

Intel today have announced the release if Wimax enabled boards for notebook pcs, delivery later this year. Wimax is being beta tested in Uk presently. Does anyone know whats the story here? Apart from speed it seems to offer much wider coverage.

My original post was along the lines of someone like ESB putting Wi-Fi mesh boxes say on all their esb poles in Dublin and providing an alternative service not dependant on the Telecom 'last mile' monopoly.

 

[ClubMan]

Some of the [broken link removed] and/or Navini gear that the likes of Irish Broadband use are effectively use "pre" WiMAX technology as far as I recall.

 

[ClubMan]

My original post was along the lines of someone like ESB putting Wi-Fi mesh boxes say on all their esb poles in Dublin and providing an alternative service not dependant on the Telecom 'last mile' monopoly.

And that's the sort of setup that I was referring to above in relation to community broadband schemes. Seemingly they can mount one transponder (within certain constraints) on public utility poles (e.g. ESB etc.) without planning permission.

 

[bankrupt]

Some of the [broken link removed] and/or Navini gear that the likes of Irish Broadband use are effectively use "pre" WiMAX technology as far as I recall.

Pre-Wimax means nothing, practically every wireless equipment provider declared this. The reality is that Alvarion do have a wimax product (breezemax - 3.5GHz) that Irish Broadband are rolling out. I don't think Alvarion have finished certifying it as Wimax yet. Navini however, do not have anything even close to Wimax (although they have joined the forum - there is space in the standard for "smart" antenna which is the main part of Navini's schtick.)

There is a lot of hype around Wimax - it is an improvement on existing wireless tech but it's nothing particularly special IMO. It may build enough momentum to bring down the price of the end-user device but that remains to be seen. Ireland has a unique imbalance in its broadband market towards wireless providers because wire-line is over-priced, the fact is that wireless broadband is far better suited to rural environments where wired broadband is difficult.

With the advent of Video on demand and IPTV wireless broadband will go the way of the Sinclair ZX Spectrum.

 

[ClubMan]

Pre-Wimax means nothing

My point is that WiMAX like gear is already widely used. Pre-any standard does not mean nothing but obviously does not mean standards compatible (usually because the standard is still in flux!). But there are plenty of pre-standard equipment in the past that was easily upgraded to the standard when it was released (e.g. K56flex modems that were firmware upgradeable to V.90/92 when the ITU standardised the latter, pre-802.11n gear that should be easily firmware/driver upgradeable to 802.11n when it is finalised etc.). In many cases lack of standards compliance (due to the lack of a finalised standard) or certification (ditto) has not stood in the way of the adoption of technologies which can interoperate and can later be upgraded to match the standard being tracked early on. Far from the idealised/strict standards based approach but often a pragmatic way to get things going. Obviously there's always a risk in buying pre standard equipment. Anybody who thinks, for example, all 802.11a/b/g chipsets are created equal and contain no bugs or quirks that affect functionality but not necessarily the end user experience might get a few surprises if they did a bit of packet sniffing and spectrum analysis. But it doesn't generally impact adoption of this technology and interoperability between different manufacturers' implementations.

 

[Modus]

My understanding is that the areas in question have no access to broadband (with the possible exception of satellite), they can get a grant to cover some of the costs of the setup, people (like my colleague and the people he deals with) volunteer their technical and other services for free, the users pay a subscription fee to cover ongoing running and maintenance costs. Seems reasonable to me. There is nothing stopping people who are so inclined setting something similar up in their own area/community albeit without the grants I presume. Of course it will involve some hard work.

The situation is somewhat simpler than written above. I was involved in setting up a "group broadband scheme" in my area which has gone operational within the past couple of months. The idea is based on the old group water schemes. The scheme in our area was organised in conjunction with the South West Regional Authority [broken link removed]. The first thing you need is an expression of written interest from members of the community. This generally takes the form of a survey. You then need a community organisation who are willing to act as representatives of the community. In our community, the community council did this. In others, a dedicated group of broadband enthusiasts set themselves up. The SWRA then partnered us with potential ISPs who were willing to provide us with broadband based on the demand we had surveyed. We agreed on a supplier and they got a grant for 30% of the capital costs of setting up the coverage.

Once it's set up, normal broadband subscriber fees apply to the users.

Country wide, the contacts for this scheme are to be found at:
[broken link removed]

Phase 2 is closed but I'd be surprised if there isn't a phase 3 in the works.

It's a good scheme, assuming they continue it - you're taxpayers euros at work and community spirit in action.

 

[bankrupt]

My point is that WiMAX like gear is already widely used. Pre-any standard does not mean nothing but obviously does not mean standards compatible (usually because the standard is still in flux!). But there are plenty of pre-standard equipment in the past that was easily upgraded to the standard when it was released (e.g. K56flex modems that were firmware upgradeable to V.90/92 when the ITU standardised the latter, pre-802.11n gear that should be easily firmware/driver upgradeable to 802.11n when it is finalised etc.). In many cases lack of standards compliance (due to the lack of a finalised standard) or certification (ditto) has not stood in the way of the adoption of technologies which can interoperate and can later be upgraded to match the standard being tracked early on. Far from the idealised/strict standards based approach but often a pragmatic way to get things going. Obviously there's always a risk in buying pre standard equipment. Anybody who thinks, for example, all 802.11a/b/g chipsets are created equal and contain no bugs or quirks that affect functionality but not necessarily the end user experience might get a few surprises if they did a bit of packet sniffing and spectrum analysis. But it doesn't generally impact adoption of this technology and interoperability between different manufacturers' implementations.

I take your point but what happened with Wimax is that a lot of the wireless equipment vendors announced pre-wimax "compatability" with no intention of their equipment being capable of wimax interoperability. Generally there was no upgrade path bar a complete replacement! This is just hype, unlike K56/V90/x2 when generally speaking all modems became compliant with a software change (similarly with 802.11 standards). This is quite different from experiencing "a few surprises" when the real thing comes along. How about this for a surprise - "Actually none of that hardware you bought at huge expense is compatible - you have to buy new gear - surprise!"

 

[runner]

I think we all agree that the word 'compatible' has been grossly abused over the last half centuary of technological and software developments. Ive always taken it with a grain of salt, as it usually piggy backs onto some development or innovation that has not yet been become ubiqutious and may never become a standard anyway.
Its just a marketing term now.

 

[ClubMan]

The situation is somewhat simpler than written above. I was involved in setting up a "group broadband scheme" in my area which has gone operational within the past couple of months. The idea is based on the old group water schemes. The scheme in our area was organised in conjunction with the South West Regional Authority [broken link removed]. The first thing you need is an expression of written interest from members of the community. This generally takes the form of a survey. You then need a community organisation who are willing to act as representatives of the community. In our community, the community council did this. In others, a dedicated group of broadband enthusiasts set themselves up. The SWRA then partnered us with potential ISPs who were willing to provide us with broadband based on the demand we had surveyed. We agreed on a supplier and they got a grant for 30% of the capital costs of setting up the coverage.

Once it's set up, normal broadband subscriber fees apply to the users.

Country wide, the contacts for this scheme are to be found at:
[broken link removed]

Phase 2 is closed but I'd be surprised if there isn't a phase 3 in the works.

It's a good scheme, assuming they continue it - you're taxpayers euros at work and community spirit in action.

Thanks Modus - interesting stuff. Are there any other good sources of information (e.g. IrishWAN etc.)? I'm just asking out of curiosity. Others may have a more direct/practical interest.

 

[ClubMan]

Generally there was no upgrade path bar a complete replacement! This is just hype, unlike K56/V90/x2 when generally speaking all modems became compliant with a software change (similarly with 802.11 standards).

Are you sure about that? In some, most or all cases? I would be very surprised if pre WiMAX, 802.11n etc. OEMs did not provide for an upgrade path most likely via NVRAM based firmware/driver upgrades.

 

[Modus]

Are there any other good sources of information (e.g. IrishWAN etc.)? I'm just asking out of curiosity. Others may have a more direct/practical interest.

I'm afraid I'm really no expert on rolling out broadband, I just was keen to see it come to my area and got involved. If people are keen to try to get a group broadband scheme up and running in their area I think their best bet would be to email their local regional co-ordinator ([broken link removed])
and ask to be informed if the government rolls out a 3rd phase of the scheme.

Since I see Noel Dempsey issued a press release yesterday saying what a wonderful job they did in the Shannon region on Group Broadband Schemes [broken link removed], I assume he'll look favorably on them in the future.

IrishWAN is certainly another option, especially if you have the expertise and time to assist them, it might even get you there faster!

 

[ClubMan]

Thanks Modus. If/when I get more information from my colleague about his work in this area I'll post it.

 

[bankrupt]

Are you sure about that? In some, most or all cases? I would be very surprised if pre WiMAX, 802.11n etc. OEMs did not provide for an upgrade path most likely via NVRAM based firmware/driver upgrades.

Quite sure. It was the case in all vendors I came across (you obviously have not had the "pleasure" of dealing with fixed wireless vendors - there's an awful lot of snake oil out there). 802.11 was not subject to the same vagaries in my experience. The standard wimax silicon is only just beginning to appear - hence the forklift "upgrades" required for pre-wimax kit.