Should we pay more tax to have a better society?

E

extopia

Registered User
Messages
3,146
At a meeting with a solicitor recently, I was struck by how, in a conversation about inheritance and tax, the professional advisor assumed that my default position would be to minimise my own ‘tax bill’ in relation to my potential inheritances, and to minimise my children’s tax bill in relation to theirs.

It seems to me that, if we want a better society, with good public services, a health system, a system for ensuring most people have somewhere to live, we should be willing to pay more tax. Or at least start rethinking our attitude towards tax as a burden, whereas it might be something else entirely, something that is necessary for the public good.

Maybe tax is the future, a means to unlock human decency and solidarity with others? A good thing, in other words; a price many are willing to pay?

Am I alone? Can we rehabilitate taxation as a means towards creating a better society?

Or am I hopelessly naive?
 
If we had taxation and services like Germany or the Nordic countries, then yes, I think people would be happier to pay more taxes. But we don't. We are somewhere between the European model and the US. We have a safety net but services in general are pretty bad or just alright. And we have a progressive taxation system where the higher earners pay the most, with 52% going in tax for higher earners. If we were to adopt the more European model, a lot of lower earners would have to start paying taxes too. So it wouldn't just be the wealthy giving out, the lower paid would too as they would be caught in the tax net too. Who is going to put that in their manifesto!
 
extopia said:
start rethinking our attitude towards tax as a burden
Click to expand...

I think that is the problem - we view tax as a burden, as a penalty, as a cost.

We need to see it as our contribution to running society.

The problem is whether it is Germany or Ireland, a lot of it is wasted or poorly spent.

There is a belief that people waste less if they spend it themselves. That the private sector gets better value than the public sector.

Brendan
 
One area where we could definitely do some work is paying tax just to get it back in services.

For example, the Fair Deal Scheme. Why should the taxpayer be paying the nursing home costs of people who can well afford it themselves? The argument put forward is "Well old people paid taxes all their lives, so it's the least we can do.".

I think it would be much better if the state paid for nursing homes for those who can't afford it but the rest pay for themselves.

There are thousands of posts on askboutmoney from wealthy people or their children about how to minimise their contribution to the Fair Deal Scheme. I think that anyone who owns their own home should pay for their own nursing home. It shouldn't be for me to pay for it so that their children can inherit more.
 
No because the Irish state has never been bigger, it grew from 67 billion euros in 2017 to 110 billion now. So the Irish government is pulling in more money than ever before both from people paying income tax, vat, and corporation tax. The problem is not money but the ineffectiveness of the Irish state system.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
The problem is whether it is Germany or Ireland, a lot of it is wasted or poorly spent.
Click to expand...
Poorly spent.

It is all around me in DunLaoghaire Rathdown. Roads, footpaths, buildings....

As someone who walks in the grounds of UCD Belfield for over 40 years now, I have never seen a place that wastes more money as there. Roads built, the same roads dug up. Landscaping done then same landscaping ripped up. Car parks built then car parks replaced. Football pitches built then football pitches removed. On and On over the years......
 
I would also like to see the benefit received linked to the taxes paid.

For example, it's outrageous that self-employed people paying 4% PRSI can get a full contributory pension. The same as an employee who pays 4% and whose employer pays another 11% into the fund on their behalf.

It would be impossible to get the self-employed to pay more. But they might if their pension was based on their contribution.
 
I think I would be happy to pay more tax for a greater range of essential services offered by the state. Some of which used to operated but have since been privatised

Bin collection & Energy supply for example

Would definitely like to see greater accountability, more efficiency and less waste in current system before any changes made
 
  • Like
Reactions: mtp
Brendan Burgess said:
For example, it's outrageous that self-employed people paying 4% PRSI can get a full contributory pension. The same as an employee who pays 4% and whose employer pays another 11% into the fund on their behalf.
Click to expand...
I fail to see the inequity here Brendan.
The 11% is a de facto tax on employers, a good proportion of whom are self employed. So, apart from independent freelancers, most self employed people will pay more in PRSI than an employee on the same earnings.
 
On the wider point, I can't help thinking that the opening post sounds like it was written around 2006.

Sooner or later there will be another recession (alarmingly, they usually follow inflation) and at that point, every penny saved will count to individuals and families.
 
T McGibney said:
The 11% is a de facto tax on employers, a good proportion of whom are self employed.
Click to expand...

Just put all the PRSI contributions into a fund whether they come from the EE or the ER and base the pension on the amount in the pot.

The PRSI paid by the employer is a tax on the employee as it reduces the amount available to pay their salary.
 
We essentially have three parallel taxes of income tax prsi and usc.anybody on higher rste pays an astonishing amount.

Read the C&AG reports for insane waste.

Children's hospital

HSE

How many reports do we want to say we get worse bang for buck on health spending

The only reason we are not in crisis is the bounty of corporation tax.

We don't do strategic solutions fior anything.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
The Germans waste money as well

www.dw.com

Berlin's new airport: A story of failure and embarrassment – DW – 10/31/2020

Conception to operation has taken 30 years, with seven missed opening dates. Rather than being a symbol of a revitalized German capital, the new airport has been one of the most glaring public scandals in recent memory.
www.dw.com www.dw.com
Click to expand...
No one is saying they are perfect, no one is. If we want to look at waste, there are plenty of wastes of money in this country.

The point is what levels of services do these countries get for their taxes compared to Ireland.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
And most pennies spent by the state helping those most in need will count as well.
Click to expand...

The experience of the last recession suggested the precise opposite. The few billion a year collected in stamp duty circa 2006, which Michael McDowell and others correctly gauged the State didn't even need, melted like sleet as soon as the recession hit.

The State is there to serve the people, but not the other way around. And it's every person's responsibility to provide as best they can for themselves and their dependants. That includes planning for periodic recessions and avoiding unnecessary expenditures, including on unnecessary tax bills.
 
T McGibney said:
The experience of the last recession suggested the precise opposite. The few billion a year collected in stamp duty circa 2006, which Michael McDowell and others correctly gauged the State didn't even need, melted like sleet as soon as the recession hit.

The State is there to serve the people, but not the other way around. And it's every person's responsibility to provide as best they can for themselves and their dependants. That includes planning for periodic recessions and avoiding unnecessary expenditures, including on unnecessary tax bills.
Click to expand...
Definitely, at what point do people take responsibility for themselves. Could not agree with this post more.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top