Brendan Burgess
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The bank failed to explain the discrepancy between the 40k and the over 160k. Should they be allowed get away with that?
lets get involved in the precise meaning on fraud
Actually the Gardai disagree with you there. On their website say "it is better to err on the side of caution and report the matter to your local Garda Station". Not only that, but in answer to the question "I am not a victim of fraud however I believe a fraud may have been committed against another person or company " they replied "Section 19 Criminal Justice Act 2011 places a legal obligation on anyone to report to An Garda Síochána, information relating to possible frauds which they may know or believe might prevent the fraud being committed, or secure the apprehension prosecution or conviction of a person involved in fraudulent activity."The dealings between the bank, it's employees and third party brokers is their business, it's up to them to decide if they wish to make a complaint.
Surely that is all the more reason to investigate all suspected fraud as cases arise, and punish the offenders. It would act as a deterrent to others in the future. Either you are for the law or you are not. You saying "The Fraud Squad would be very busy if they investigated every fraud." is like saying the sex crimes squad would be very busy if they investigated every sex crime.The Fraud Squad would be very busy if they investigated every fraud.
If this is a fraud, it's a fraud perpetrated on the bank by an employee.
If this is a fraud, it's a fraud perpetrated on the bank by an employee.
I find the lack of qualification in the quoted line curious and, frankly, smacking of bias!
It is possible that an employee of the bank acted inappropriately. The bank should sanction that employee.
If it was a systemic behaviour approved by the management, the management should be sanctioned.
Or a "loan wolf"It is possible that "an employee" acted as a lone wolf.
It would act as a deterrent to others in the future. Either you are for the law or you are not.
Anyway, thanks for all your help, I think for peace of mind it should be reported and the Gardai can decide to investigate or not.
This website is full of such acknowledgements. It's true, banks acted inappropriately. The Irish people were let down by the politicians, the banks, the Central Bank, the regulators. Banks allowed fake P60's, inflated figures you name it they did. What they did not do was march people into brokers to demand money.Anyway, let the record show that it is possible that the bank acted inappropriately way back when.
People with no income did not get big loans to buy property or land either. The banks were answerable to their shareholders and only lent money, or were supposed to lend money, when they thought there was a good chance of getting it back. I put it to you that the unscrupulous person or persons who changed the borrowers income from 40k to over 160k, and wrote that the borrowers income of over 160k would service the loan, must have had a short-sighted selfish reason why he, she or they deceived others - probably commission, bonus, reaching target or promotion?The Central Bank lending rules weren’t there in 2007. People didn’t necessarily need income to get a loan.
Exactly, an investigation is needed to establish is this practice was widespread, or if the employee acted alone as a lone wolf. The bank remaining tight lipped and not offering any explanation for the huge discrepancy is worrying and suspicious, to say the least. A bit like sex abuse cases, was the abuse widespead or not?It is possible that "an employee" acted as a lone wolf.
It is not certain that this was the case - so why present it so? [Remember in the mid noughties, a certain bank "lodged" billions in another bank to massage the finances and did so on the understanding the Regulator was, at the very least, potentially aware of this to and fro! So, forgive me, if I believe that the OP's version of events could well be true!]
With the benefit of historical hindsight, the bank may have done things differently here or not at all?!
She lost all. She may still be alive if someone in the bank put down her true income instead of over 160k, as it seems probable higher up people in the bank would not have approved the loan if they knew she only earned 40k or took the time to study the accounts she provided. Anyway her case is over, the bank got the land back and all she had, the insurance company covered the balance.Despite being asked many times you have not once told us whether she put her savings and inheritance into the original purchase.
So say if someone deceived someone else say 20 times, by changing figures on forms from what they were supposed to be, and pocketed say 5k as a result each time, that is €100,000. Do you not think white collar fraud in general should be investigated, or any type of crime should be investigated?Good luck with wasting the time of the Gardai.
The bank writing €160K in a box instead of €40K is not a fraud.
As explained earlier, the person or people who deceived others by greatly overstating the borrowers income and therefore making the sale of the loan, more than likely did so for commission, bonus, to reach a target, get promotion or whatever. They did not care who was the victim, if they got away with it. In the long run, of course, they should have known such lending was not sustainable, and would end in tears for the borrower, the bank shareholders etc - as did happen.But the bank is a victim of any fraud that has taken place?
She lost all. She may still be alive if someone in the bank put down her true income instead of over 160k, as it seems probable higher up people in the bank would not have approved the loan if they knew she only earned 40k or took the time to study the accounts she provided. Anyway her case is over, the bank got the land back and all she had, the insurance company covered the balance.
So say if someone deceived someone else say 20 times, by changing figures on forms from what they were supposed to be, and pocketed say 5k as a result each time, that is €100,000. Do you not think white collar fraud in general should be investigated, or any type of crime should be investigated?
The bank actually did not lose money on it, as they got all of the borrowers savings, inheritance etc, everything she earned, the bank got the land back, sold it, and the insurance company paid the balance. So neither the wrong doers in the bank, or the bank itself, lost out. Hence why it could happen again in the future if the individual or individuals concerned are not investigated and punished if necessary.
Most of these cases of overstatement of income was done with the connivence of the borrowers. That's my experience of what went on.As explained earlier, the person or people who deceived others by greatly overstating the borrowers income and therefore making the sale of the loan, more than likely did so for commission, bonus, to reach a target, get promotion or whatever. They did not care who was the victim, if they got away with it.
According to the definition of fraud, and what is in the file in black and white, it seems there is a case, but would not the Garda Fraud dept be the best people to decide if there was a case? Why are you so afraid of them investigating?The reason it shouldn't be investigated now is there is no case
It is in the file / let the Gardai find out. I have very high respect for the Gardai. I have seen them go back 30 and 40 years in some cases, very impressive work.there is no way to prove who did what in relation to the forms
No the broker did not emigrate. It seems you are scraping the bottom of the barrel with excuse for there to be no investigation. Why is that?and the broker probably emigrated in 2008.
So you have experience of fraud inside the banking system? Would you care to share your experience with the relevant authorities? Again I ask you, do you think suspected white collar fraud in general should be investigated?Most of these cases of overstatement of income was done with the connivence of the borrowers. That's my experience of what went on.
Also it's probably statute barred.
I knew about how banks operate way before the Celtic tiger. That’s why I loath them. You’ll not find me defending them. But I’m not accepting some people are not culpable in their own financial downfall. You have no skin in this, you’re wasting your time, but by all means pop off to the Gardai who will laugh at you.According to the definition of fraud, and what is in the file in black and white, it seems there is a case, but would not the Garda Fraud dept be the best people to decide if there was a case? Why are you so afraid of them investigating?
It is in the file / let the Gardai find out. I have very high respect for the Gardai. I have seen them go back 30 and 40 years in some cases, very impressive work.
No the broker did not emigrate. It seems you are scraping the bottom of the barrel with excuse for there to be no investigation. Why is that?
So you have experience of fraud inside the banking system? Would you care to share your experience with the relevant authorities?
?? Are you trying to say the Gardai would not be capable of finding out who was possibly guilty of "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain" by stating the borrowers income was over 160k, when the evidence and proof was it was only €40k? I have seen the Gardai in an abuse case go back many decades and the amount of people they interviewed and the details they cross checked was incredible. In my opinion there was less evidence in that case, and the wrong doer got jailed.No broker or banker will admit they put fake figures, you don’t know of they did or didn’t, a figure on tge firm is to riff of fraud
But your relative signed the documents, so she accepted what was in the documentation.
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