Self Build - Starts today
- Thread starter Birroc
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sydthebeat
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buy the HOMEBOND manual and stick religiously to it.
sydthebeat
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my god, thats my worst nightmare!!!
that site is filled with inaccuracies and incorrect information.
my god, thats my worst nightmare!!!
that site is filled with inaccuracies and incorrect information.
Interesting to hear your view. It has been recommended a few times on AAM.
sydthebeat
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dont want to throw this thread off topic,but.....
I dont agree with the basic premise of the whole website.
The first two paragraphs of the 'why self build' seems to purport that any new build is a type of 'self build', which of course is not correct.
there are three types of construction projects:
1. Hiring a contractor to do the whole build
2. 'Direct Labour' where the client becomes the project manager and sub contracts most jobs.
3. Self build where the clients physically builds many of the elements themselves.
I know of no construction of a dwelling where the client didn't have any say into the design, specification or selection of materials. This website seems to say that thus every build where the client has any input whatsoever is a self build, this simply isnt correct.
All this website is doing is describing the proper and correct procedures in the standard construction project, which is a good thing (although there are inaccuracies)
maybe im just being pedantic, but self building to me is not what that website is about.
There are specific building regs mentioned that are incorrect, namely the disabled access reg and the escape window reg. Its a very dangerous thing to do to just synopsise the building regs. it needs to be constantly upgraded, or simply link to the current regs on http://www.environ.ie
I dont agree with the basic premise of the whole website.
The first two paragraphs of the 'why self build' seems to purport that any new build is a type of 'self build', which of course is not correct.
there are three types of construction projects:
1. Hiring a contractor to do the whole build
2. 'Direct Labour' where the client becomes the project manager and sub contracts most jobs.
3. Self build where the clients physically builds many of the elements themselves.
I know of no construction of a dwelling where the client didn't have any say into the design, specification or selection of materials. This website seems to say that thus every build where the client has any input whatsoever is a self build, this simply isnt correct.
All this website is doing is describing the proper and correct procedures in the standard construction project, which is a good thing (although there are inaccuracies)
maybe im just being pedantic, but self building to me is not what that website is about.
There are specific building regs mentioned that are incorrect, namely the disabled access reg and the escape window reg. Its a very dangerous thing to do to just synopsise the building regs. it needs to be constantly upgraded, or simply link to the current regs on http://www.environ.ie
Congratulations. I was in the same boat last August. Its thrilling but scary too. A few tips:
- Document everything with solicitors, architects, banks, planners, builder, contractors etc. Keep a diary of everything that happens throughout the build. You may never need it but its no harm to refer back to it especially when ordering, paying off things etc.
- Talk regularly with your architect and builder and make sure they are talking to each other.
- Have a contingency. As much as you budget and try to keep within that there is always something that comes up that you haven’t allowed for.
- Shop around. Whether its for windows, doors, granite worktops etc make sure you shop around. Your builder can help you with getting things but keep yourself informed on costs and quality. Keep extra copies of plans etc to send out to companies for quotes and have a scanned copy to send out by email.
AAM is a great website for advice on various aspects such as doors, windows, legals, planning etc so make sure to utilise it. It has helped me immensely.
Good luck.
- Document everything with solicitors, architects, banks, planners, builder, contractors etc. Keep a diary of everything that happens throughout the build. You may never need it but its no harm to refer back to it especially when ordering, paying off things etc.
- Talk regularly with your architect and builder and make sure they are talking to each other.
- Have a contingency. As much as you budget and try to keep within that there is always something that comes up that you haven’t allowed for.
- Shop around. Whether its for windows, doors, granite worktops etc make sure you shop around. Your builder can help you with getting things but keep yourself informed on costs and quality. Keep extra copies of plans etc to send out to companies for quotes and have a scanned copy to send out by email.
AAM is a great website for advice on various aspects such as doors, windows, legals, planning etc so make sure to utilise it. It has helped me immensely.
Good luck.
march_hare
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Broke ground 19th April 2007 and plastering now on our direct labour build.
My few nuggets of wisdom -
1. Always check and ask about everything even if you think it sounds stupid - don't assume your tradesmen will do the logical thing because they sometimes don't. And be at / check the site daily at some point to make contact - this is one of the most tiring parts but its pretty essential unless you have someone to oversee.
2. Make good use of your engineer.
3. Keep on top of the tidying - I have become obsessed with a tidy site but if trades see a mess they will add to it - not to mention the safety aspect.
4. Think absolutely EVERYTHING through from light switches to directions doors open to furniture placement as once the first fixing is happening you can do with out the stress of wondering if you are making the right choices.
5. Be firm with your changes
6. If you don't like a tradesman for whatever reason - trust your instinct and find one that you do. Recommendations are always best.
7. Shop around - all the time.
8. Make sure to take the odd day off - if you work in addition to early mornings/late evenings and weekends at the site, it wears on nerves and relationships...
Its a great experience though - you will have many new skills by the end of it and know your own home inside out. Good luck.
My few nuggets of wisdom -
1. Always check and ask about everything even if you think it sounds stupid - don't assume your tradesmen will do the logical thing because they sometimes don't. And be at / check the site daily at some point to make contact - this is one of the most tiring parts but its pretty essential unless you have someone to oversee.
2. Make good use of your engineer.
3. Keep on top of the tidying - I have become obsessed with a tidy site but if trades see a mess they will add to it - not to mention the safety aspect.
4. Think absolutely EVERYTHING through from light switches to directions doors open to furniture placement as once the first fixing is happening you can do with out the stress of wondering if you are making the right choices.
5. Be firm with your changes
6. If you don't like a tradesman for whatever reason - trust your instinct and find one that you do. Recommendations are always best.
7. Shop around - all the time.
8. Make sure to take the odd day off - if you work in addition to early mornings/late evenings and weekends at the site, it wears on nerves and relationships...
Its a great experience though - you will have many new skills by the end of it and know your own home inside out. Good luck.
Sorry Syd, I will call my topics Direct Labour from now on. It makes sense actually.
sydthebeat
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Birroc, that wasnt meant to be aimed at you .
The term 'self build' has become widespread over the last few years and really is becoming the norm in describing something else. websites like that one, and publications such as 'self build' etc purport the term.
When in reality all they are doing is describing the standard usual construction process.
I have often been frustrated by clients who say they intend to 'self build' and then go on to describe the turn key contract they have signed with a timber frame manufacture or even a building contractor. Thats not self building and they find that out when they go for a mortgage. The usual question is whether its a 'contract build' or a 'direct labour build'.
Again, maybe its me being pedantic, and i dont think its going to change, but what do you call the project where the client actual does build the dwelling himself???
. The term 'self build' has become widespread over the last few years and really is becoming the norm in describing something else. websites like that one, and publications such as 'self build' etc purport the term.
When in reality all they are doing is describing the standard usual construction process.
I have often been frustrated by clients who say they intend to 'self build' and then go on to describe the turn key contract they have signed with a timber frame manufacture or even a building contractor. Thats not self building and they find that out when they go for a mortgage. The usual question is whether its a 'contract build' or a 'direct labour build'.
Again, maybe its me being pedantic, and i dont think its going to change, but what do you call the project where the client actual does build the dwelling himself???
Sydthebeat,
I would disagree with your take on what Self build is.
Your focus is too strictly on the word meaning and I accept your point that it implies a build by oneself. However in reality, industry wide, not only in this country but it the UK, US, Australia, a lot of Europe, the term Self Build is used primarily to distuinguish between a commercial developer built house/project and a private build.
There are obviously degrees of scale and a Self Build project using a main contractor is a lot closer to a turn key developer project, but there is crucially still a difference ... control.
Even with a contractor you as the Self Builder are the owner of the project. You still have to oversee the contractor and ensure he is building to your spec and using the exact materials spec'd and not lower quality substitutes for example.
Whether or not you get down or dirty and do physical work or trades is only semantics, but having said that invariably every self build project will always always always require the Self Builder to muck in at some point or other.
In addition your three categories could be broken out further
- Contractor to shell stage. DIY or Direct labour basis to finish. By your definition what is this then classed as ?
- Project Manager.
Self build is more about taking control as opposed to doing the actual work.
You may have a point in that the words used in their strictest sense have been hijacked to a degree, but does it matter in the end ... not in the slightest !
I would disagree with your take on what Self build is.
Your focus is too strictly on the word meaning and I accept your point that it implies a build by oneself. However in reality, industry wide, not only in this country but it the UK, US, Australia, a lot of Europe, the term Self Build is used primarily to distuinguish between a commercial developer built house/project and a private build.
There are obviously degrees of scale and a Self Build project using a main contractor is a lot closer to a turn key developer project, but there is crucially still a difference ... control.
Even with a contractor you as the Self Builder are the owner of the project. You still have to oversee the contractor and ensure he is building to your spec and using the exact materials spec'd and not lower quality substitutes for example.
Whether or not you get down or dirty and do physical work or trades is only semantics, but having said that invariably every self build project will always always always require the Self Builder to muck in at some point or other.
In addition your three categories could be broken out further
- Contractor to shell stage. DIY or Direct labour basis to finish. By your definition what is this then classed as ?
- Project Manager.
Self build is more about taking control as opposed to doing the actual work.
You may have a point in that the words used in their strictest sense have been hijacked to a degree, but does it matter in the end ... not in the slightest !
sydthebeat
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I agree that the term doesnt matter, but the premise behind it matters very much.
I accept some points you make, but i would argue that the sentence ive 'bolded' is the crux of the matter.
The vast majority of 'owners' do not have the knowledge to assume 'control' of this overseeing process. This is the biggest drawback in any direct labour build. The control is in the hands of an untrained unknowledgeable person.
The proper procedure is for the client to appoint a 'competent professional' to 'oversee' or 'supervise' the build but, in my experience, this is a rarity.
The owner should only consult with this 'competent professional' who in turns deals with the builder. The ommision of this vital engagement in the construction process invariable leads to the detriment of the build.
Your question regarding the 'contract to shell' and diy finish is whats commonly referred to as 'direct labour'.
Developer vrs private builds are best described as speculative and non-speculative development. Although, the truth being told, ever build is speculative...
I see where you are coming from in that the quality of a self build project
could suffer from lack of knowledge of the owner in some cases and only someone who has the required knowledge and skills to actually do the build or majority of the build themselves is actually fully in control of the finished project. To a degree I would say you have a point. Though again I would disagree that the vast majority of 'owners' don't have this ability to control a project. Anybody who undertakes a project to build their own house is in control by the simple fact that they have gone down this route in the first place and it takes a certain amount of knowledge to even get to first base so to speak.
The people who decide that a Self Build project is not for them usually have been scared off at the initial stages of dealing with planning, architects, qs, budgeting when the amount of organisation involved starts to become apparent.
This is of course a generalisation and admittedly some people do end up trying to go down this route without even having any of the most basic required abilities to manage or control the project. But I would say this is the minority as opposed to the majority.
The level of control you have can be tapered to your experience by using a main contractor, a project manager, direct labour or on a DIY basis and I agree a competent professional is a must to be involved. At a minimum we know an engineer or architect has to certify the construction.
By reserving the term Self Builder for only those who do all the work themselves is only covering the very smallest number of self build projects. Taking into account the bigger picture, everywhere else a self build project is qualified further by either using a main contractor, project manager, hiring subbies (direct labour is only an Irish term not known elsewhere), or on a diy basis (where the majority of work is done by the project owner).
could suffer from lack of knowledge of the owner in some cases and only someone who has the required knowledge and skills to actually do the build or majority of the build themselves is actually fully in control of the finished project. To a degree I would say you have a point. Though again I would disagree that the vast majority of 'owners' don't have this ability to control a project. Anybody who undertakes a project to build their own house is in control by the simple fact that they have gone down this route in the first place and it takes a certain amount of knowledge to even get to first base so to speak.
The people who decide that a Self Build project is not for them usually have been scared off at the initial stages of dealing with planning, architects, qs, budgeting when the amount of organisation involved starts to become apparent.
This is of course a generalisation and admittedly some people do end up trying to go down this route without even having any of the most basic required abilities to manage or control the project. But I would say this is the minority as opposed to the majority.
The level of control you have can be tapered to your experience by using a main contractor, a project manager, direct labour or on a DIY basis and I agree a competent professional is a must to be involved. At a minimum we know an engineer or architect has to certify the construction.
By reserving the term Self Builder for only those who do all the work themselves is only covering the very smallest number of self build projects. Taking into account the bigger picture, everywhere else a self build project is qualified further by either using a main contractor, project manager, hiring subbies (direct labour is only an Irish term not known elsewhere), or on a diy basis (where the majority of work is done by the project owner).
sydthebeat
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But if its the 'minority' then by default the 'majority' are an amalgamation competent project managers, clerk of works, architects, architectural technicians and engineers... which of course they aren't.
If their ability to project manage is basic then the standard of both the project and the build will be diminished. Thats an inevitable truth.
Without being in any way deriding, its clear from forums such as this one that many people 'self building' do not have the adequate knowledge to project manage. Its a trial and error based process which in many cases end up where perceived savings turn into extra costs.
Im not taking from anyone who have the 'cahoonas' to do it. I admire their bravery.
D
daddycool
Guest
semantics - I consider myself a 'self-builder' although I won't be lifting a finger in actual work and will be spending a fortune through a contractor! Would love to but the site location and my job location don't make a 'direct labour' project possible. So, as a real eg. of this disuccsion, I have been involved in every decision re: design and perc. tests and all that jazz. Every material choice is mine. The foreman is sick of me already (well hopefully actually not but frequent calls are made!). I have a structural engineer and an architect all over the project like a rash. So I don't do any actual building but will get the key to my house in 12 months time but will still consider I built it myself as I designed it, choose every material, will solve issues (well discuss the consequences as they arise of decisions to be made) - granted the better model is direct labour for less spend but the actual day-to-day mgt in my book is maybe worth the cash so I can do what I do best (not building) and leave the managment of same to the pros - just my opinion - that said if I was a plasterer I'd be building it myself!
D
daddycool
Guest
by the way lets all apologize to Birroc who started this post in the hope of getting some advice and now is watching his thread disintegrate into a mass of 'self-build' discussions ...
Best of luck with the build - mine started 3 weeks early and then instantly ground to a halt on excavation and now we are bore-holing samples 10 metres down and are already 3 weeks behind ... won't bore you with the details - be prepared for delays ... and I haven't even laid a block or foundation yet!!
Best of luck with the build - mine started 3 weeks early and then instantly ground to a halt on excavation and now we are bore-holing samples 10 metres down and are already 3 weeks behind ... won't bore you with the details - be prepared for delays ... and I haven't even laid a block or foundation yet!!
No problem Daddycool. I actually moved some site rubbish around yesterday so I now consider myself a direct labour self builder.
Thats unfortunate. Hope things improve for you.
best of luck birroc!!!
our advice ... prop your gables if you have them upstairs .... especially in windy weather .... take it from someone who knows .... !!!
and best of luck with it!!! buy plenty of aspirin!!! only joking, enjoy the experience ... it's exciting!!
our advice ... prop your gables if you have them upstairs .... especially in windy weather .... take it from someone who knows .... !!!
and best of luck with it!!! buy plenty of aspirin!!! only joking, enjoy the experience ... it's exciting!!
thanks rose but what exactly do you mean by propping up the gable ?