Rip Off Republic - Episode #2 - review


Do you include Fine Gael's ripoff campaign in this? After all...

1. Phil Hogan (their main ripoff campaigner) is the same Phil Hogan who joined forces with the RGData grocers a few years ago telling us to avoid shopping in Lidl and Aldi on the basis that they were not stocking Irish goods (needless to say he was proved wrong).

2. Fine Gael are the same Fine Gael who have acknowleged that they can only take power after the next election by joining a coalition with the pro-benchmarking and pro-union Labour Party. Hardly much scope for tax cuts there...

3. Fine Gael are the same Fine Gael who took control of many local authorities up and down the country after last summer's local elections, yet who have failed spectacularly to introduce any reductions whatsoever in local authority taxes and charges to business or the consumer in the intervening 14 months.

(Of course the real reason why no politician is honest or brave enough to point out that that the high prices in Pubs, Supermarkets, Electronics stores, restraurants, are high for a reason, is that they would be mercilessly mocked and abused for their honesty and bravery, much as Tourism Minister John O'Donoghue was apparently ridiculed on Eddie Hobbs' show for saying something along these lines in relation to prices in hotels and restaurants.)

Another example of what you term as "lying and hypocrisy", once again from under the banner of "rip off ireland", is the Irish Ferries ad campaign urging consumers to "avoid ripoff ireland". This coming from a company with a dismal and long-standing record of screwing consumers (and their own staff to boot) and which to this day has refused totally to compete in its own market on the basis of lower prices. If the "rip off ireland" campaign (such as it is) has to depend on the likes of Fine Gael and Irish Ferries for results, then it is even more threadbare than I suspect.
 
I dont think I've ever described Fine Gael as the solution. I've said on a number of occasions that putting a Fine Gael/Labour Government in will have little or no effect other than perhaps avoiding the message to FF that what they've been doing is OK.

There is no Left Wing or Right Wing in Ireland anymore. What we have is one big hot air baloon.

-Rd
 
So there is no political solution to the alleged "rip-off Ireland" problems then or do any of the other parties/politicians have the answers? Seems like a very nihilistic viewpoint.
 
The point is that FG (and Irish Ferries) are using the so called "rip-off Ireland" issue in order to fool people. This is especially ironic as they are both part of the problem! Btw, does anyone believe that Fianna Fail would do otherwise if they were in opposition?

The FG/Irish Ferries/AN Other ripoff hijack will continue to happen as long as the "rip-off Ireland" campaign (such as it is) continues to define itself in meaningless and misleading terms, eg simplistic comparisons of the price of (lightly taxed) alcohol in the UK versus (highly taxed) alcohol here. Consumer interests in this country will only prosper when its case is advocated in clear and concise terms on the basis of facts and not on the basis of irrelevancies.
 
I'm no fan of Irish Ferries, but if they are saying that they'll take you out of the country and you can get cheaper goods e.g. Alcohol abroad then there's nothing incorrect in what they are saying.

If such a difference in price exists that for some people it's economical to go abroad to buy goods then I see no problem with any company meeting the demand to take people abroad.

E.g. I buy pretty much all my clothes abroad. A few months ago I bought a web cam in the states for $30 (about €20-25). Today the same Webcam costs about €120 in Ireland.

Now I'll accept all the arguments about Rent, and Rates, and VAT and excise duty, and the Cost of transporting goods to Ireland, and the relatively small size of the Irish Market, and the wages paid to staff, and on and on and on. I'll accept all of that.
BUT if something costs 5-6 times more here, and I can pay for my flight or boat abroad with the savings I'll make, Then it's perfectly valid for the Irish consumer to stop wasting and just go and get the stuff cheaper abroad.

If a company be it Irish Ferries or Aer Lingus can capitalise on the legitimate desire to save money by going abroad then so be it.


As for Fine Gael, they are a political party desperately trying to avoid extinction. They were almost wiped out in a general election and will say or do anything, latch on to any bandwagon if it'll help restore their relevance.

I don't know if it will work. But having the second party in the country in such a weak position could be very handy. It may just be that they decided to listen to the public. Something that rarely happens. It's a bit a pathetic that the electorate have to virtually wipe out a party before the leaders of the party will sit up and take notice, but hey. We'll take what we can get.

I've agreed on this thread that the term Rip-Off Ireland has to vaguely defined. For me it means that the Quality of Life does not justify the Cost of Living. Cost of Living includes both tax and the Cost of Goods and services.

Put simply I'm not willing to spend 300K to 400K on a mediocre house, in an area services by mediocre public transport. And pay through the nose to run a car. And tolerate Gardai that won't even record crimes much less investigate them or prevent them. And then spend the rest of my life paying two or three times as much for a meal in a restaurant or a trip to the cinema or clothes, or whatever as I would pay elsewhere.

That's all it means to me. Insufficient Bang for your buck.

-Rd
 

I didn't know there were that many bargains in Holyhead to justify a charge of €99 each way for car & 1 passenger!

As for Fine Gael... having the second party in the country in such a weak position could be very handy. It may just be that they decided to listen to the public.
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Since when did they do this? As I pointed out above, they have controlled many local authorities for the past 14 months. Not one has slashed local taxes or charges to either business or consumers...
 
>>It may just be that they decided to listen to the public.

Sorry that was a type it should have read

It may just be that they decide to listen to the public.

But I agree with you, the omens aren't good.
My feeling is that it's important to get FF out of government for a while, but I don't really see the alternative being much of an improvement. The only advantage of getting FF out of government is that it hopefully sends the message that their way is not acceptable. As long as FF kep getting elected the rest will imitate. You can't blame them for that.

So there is no political solution to the alleged "rip-off Ireland" problems then or do any of the other parties/politicians have the answers? Seems like a very nihilistic viewpoint.
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There are things that can be done. Very simple common sense ideas. Even Rainyday agreed with all but two of them the last time I listed them. But if there was a market for these ideas some party would propose them and get elected. Clearly people like the way FF runs the country. It would not surprise me one little bit if the SSIA trick buys them another term in office.

Sooo.... If the majority like the way the country is run, (or are willing to elect FF even though they dislike the way the country is run) then what's a boy to do?

-Rd
 
daltonr said:
It is valid to point out that we build QBC's but don't bother with Park and Rides and peopleare going to continue to drive into the city center, or park in residential areas.
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They will only continue to drive into the city centre or park in residential areas if they refuse to accept the revolutionary option of walking to/from the bus stop. But then I suppose there will a rip-off on the price of umbrellas - right?
 
daltonr - I have just reviewed some of your posts in this thread and you seem to be doing such a good job of contradicting and undermining yourself that maybe the rest of us don't need to bother balancing or rebutting some of your more sweeping and generalised assertions any further. (Underlining is mine).

Above you said:
and yet earlier you said:
For what it's worth I'll also campaign for some politicians that I like including one in FF.
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The way things are going it looks like every seat will count next election so if you are serious about getting and keeping FF out then you really should give then absolutely no support. This is not a call to arms merely an observation.

Above you say:
But if there was a market for these ideas some party would propose them and get elected. Clearly people like the way FF runs the country.
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And yet earlier, in several places, you claimed nascent or existing widespread support for the idea that "rip-off Ireland" exists and objections to same:
But most puzzling of all contradictions has to be this juxtaposition of quotes from yourself:
It probably is worth saying that there is such diversity in terms of what people think Rip-Off Ireland means that it's almost a meaningless phrase.
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and
"Rip-off Ireland" is an almost meaningless phrase that encapsulates an awful lot for some people. I think that inanity just about sums up this thread at this stage.
 
Clubman,

Thanks for revewing the posts. It looks like yet again you're adding two and two and getting 22. Remember your confusion about how something can have things going for it but not be great?????

I think perhaps you're trying to find inconsistency where there isn't any.


>My feeling is that it's important to get FF out of government for a while

>For what it's worth I'll also campaign for some politicians that I like >including one in FF.

The ONE FF TD I like is John McGuiness. He has been more critical of the way things are going than most and if FF had a few more like him it might be a better party. He was making saying these things long before FF got a bloody nose in the local elections, and being "humble" became fashionable. He was the only government representative that I could see in the recent Prime Time programs admitting that there was a problem.

Given my record on here I hope I'm not screwing the guys reputation by saying I like him.

Ideally I'd like to see FF in opposition for a while and perhaps it would motivate them to start listening to some of the people who have raised concerns. Perhaps in a future election there would be more like McGuinness and I would support all of them.

>Clearly people like the way FF runs the country.

I was being sarcastic. It appears a sizable (but thankfully shrinking) chunck of people in Ireland vote like their daddies voted. It's a much bigger problem in rural constituencies than Urban, but it has certainly helped bolster FF even when people are very unhappy.

I've sat in FF meetings where the entire room was furious, but when it came down to it they dutifully marched out and voted the same guys back in.

>It probably is worth saying that there is such diversity in terms of what >people think Rip-Off Ireland means that it's almost a meaningless phrase.

>But even you will have to admit that there's a very real sense (even if >you don't share it) that something is wrong and that feeling is growing >and being shared by more and more people. The phrase Rip-Off seems to >encapsulate something for an awful lot of people, the phrase wouldn't >have found such wide use if it didn't hit a nerve.

There may be huge diversity in the specific meaning individuals attach to the phrase but the fact that so many seem to agree on the Phrase Rip-Off (Meaning exploitation) is significant. No contradiction here.

I'm happy to end this thread any time you like.

Rainyday. Your post, is the same old naive nonsense that if you make a wish everyone else will fall into line. The real world doesn't work like that. If you meet people half way you'll suddenly find you start getting the kind of city you want.

Given that there are cities around the world having varying degrees of success with public transport and integrating private cars and public transport, wouldn't we be better learning from them rather than ploughing on with the attitude we know best and god dammit we'll prove it if it takes 100 years.

If you were building Dublin from the ground up you might be able to design it to be a city where a car is not essential, like London, or New York.
But you're not. Live with it.

-Rd
 
daltonr said:
Remember your confusion about how something can have things going for it but not be great?????
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No.

You consistently slate the current Government and stress the importance of getting them (or at least FF) out and yet admit that you will campaign on behalf of at least one of their representatives in an election that, judging by initial polls, predictions and proposed party strategies, should be extremely close. Rather than me getting 22 from 2 + 2 here your argument simply does not add up.

This is the first time that you have mentioned the issue of atavistic voting tendancies. You seem to shift the goalposts every time somebody rebuts your arguments or points out flaws in them. As I said before I have no party political allegiances but I do feel that one has to respect the outcome of any democratic election no matter what the result and no matter what the motivation (assumed or actual) of the voters. To dismiss most or many of those who voted for FF as simply voting as their daddies did is quite a patronising and superior position to take in my opinion.

There may be huge diversity in the specific meaning individuals attach to the phrase but the fact that so many seem to agree on the Phrase Rip-Off (Meaning exploitation) is significant. No contradiction here.
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So now you are saying that, rather than it being an almost meaningless phrase, that it has a diversity of specific meanings and it encapsulates something for an awful lot of people. I'm not sure what you mean by people "agreeing on a phrase" (especially one that is either almost meaningless or has a diversity of specific meanings) but if there's no contradiction here then at the very least there's a lot of obfuscation.
 
daltonr said:
Rainyday. Your post, is the same old naive nonsense that if you make a wish everyone else will fall into line. The real world doesn't work like that. If you meet people half way you'll suddenly find you start getting the kind of city you want.
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Interesting choice of words in 'meet half way'. Personally, I'd have thought that provision of the bus service is actually meeting people about 95% of the way, but it looks like you want the public service to meet them 99% of the way. Doesn't seem like a great use of taxes to me.
 

There are too many cars in the city center. If a person is willing to drive to the outskirts of the city and take a bus the rest of the way then that's meeting half way. If you want people to leave their car at home and do the entire journey by bus or foot. Then you're the one not willing to meet half way.

It doesn't matter whether you think they should or not. People will go to work by the most comfortable and quickest means. Traffic is a symptom not a disease. The reason so many people use their car is that for them it provides the best overall means of getting from A to B. Even I, car lover that I am sometimes use the Luas (Once actually, but I'll use it again tomorrow). I Drive to it and I Park and Ride. Because that mix provides the best overall means of getting from A to B. (I have free parking right beside one of the Luas stops).

I gave the example of someone who can park in a residential area somewhere on the N11 and get a bus that drops them near their work (One car journey and one Bus Journey, where the buses pass regularly). If that person had to take their local bus they would get dropped on the wrong side of the city by a bus that runs infrequently and meanders around the country side.

This person would much rather park in a safe Park and Ride than inpinge on residents and risk damage to their car. But given the choice between a residential area and the local bus they'll take the route that offers the best overall traveling experience for them.

Their local bus takes longer to get them to and from work, It involves needlessly going into the city centre in order to get one of the crowded buses back out to where they actually work.

I did this briefly for a while when I moved to Dublin and lived in Balinteer. I used to take the 48A into the city and then try to catch a bus to Ballsbridge. Unless I went to the city center terminus I had no chance of getting on a bus leaving the city.

I switched to changing bus at Ranelagh and it improved things slightly. But when I bought a car it added an extra hour to my day, I could start my journey at any time, I never got wet, and I travelled in comfort. This was 10 years ago, I don't know how a car would fare against a bus today on that route.

A simple collection of park and rides surrounding the city would revolutionise the city centre. Sitting and waiting for everyone else to change is NEVER going to work.

You might be able to sit one person down and talk them into going out of their way, take longer to get to work, get wet occasionally. But you will never convince an entire population. And sitting waiting for other peopole to change and chastising them for not changing is futile. Human nature is that people need incentives to do anything.

A huge number of cars on the road indicates that there are a huge number of people for whom the car offers the best way of completing that leg of their journey. Give them an incentive to make their car leg end on the outskirts of the city and you'll improve the city. When that's done we can start talking about the leg between their house and the outskirts.

-Rd
 
Yesterday morning I was walking (it was a nice morning and I wasn't in a rush) the two miles away from town to visit my GP and, having nothing better to do while walking, I started observing cars that passed me heading into town via a route served by several buses. Of the scores (probably 100+) of cars that less than ten had more than one occupant with all the others carrying only a single person. Surely there could be some incentive for people to use private transport more efficiently? Or a disincentive from they using it so inefficiently?
 
daltonr,

Never mind park and ride, that has nothing to do with so-called "rip off Ireland". Perhaps you might explain how you intend at the next election to campaign for FF and for a change of government?
 
Yes. In the states and Malaysia, and Australia and many other countries there are Lanes that can only be used by cars with two or more occupants.

In Washington DC it's very interesting. People drive to Park and Rides and then Car Pool from there to the City Centre. Some people obviously meet up with friends and colleques and Car Pool. Others stand on the side of the road at the Car Pool and Motorists needing to fill up their car pull up.

There's an ettiquette to it, some people like to chat, some don't etc. It's pretty funny actually.

-Rd
 
As I recall from my most recent return, the Park and Ride facility in Stirling, Perth, WA can accommodate far, far more vehicles than the equivalent facility in Malahide, Co Dublin. In making infrastructural comparisons between the two cities, which I confess I am still doing after 10 years in Dublin, I always have to remind myself to include the legacy of history.
I prefer the term expensive as opposed to rip-off. For example, suburban shopping centre rents (per sq ft) are from 2.8 to 3 times those charged the small business operator in Australia. Similarly, the price (leaving aside affordability) of the average family home is about 2.5 times that paid in suburban Perth. I can only make valid (despite anecdotal) comparisons with Perth, although it was sobering to read over the weekend that the RBA chairman advised people not to buy a house in Sydney as the prices were too high.
 
balga,

What would be your feeling on Quality of Life in the Two cities. Is Dublin 2.5 times better?

-Rd
 
daltonr said:
What would be your feeling on Quality of Life in the Two cities. Is Dublin 2.5 times better?
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This is ridiculous! How can you have a quantitative comparative multiplier on a qualitative factor?
 
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