redundancy and alternatives

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wavejumper

Guest
my current employer has announced that my department is going to be outsourced abroad and we're therefore all toast...they are arranging with HR to find us suitable positions within the company based on our skills...i haven't been to one of these meetings yet but it seems that they make it very clear that if you do not wish to apply to the jobs on offer then you automatically forfeit any right to a redundancy payment...so lets say someone is doing sales, they offer him customer service, he/she either takes it or forget redundancy payment

While not totally unfair I wonderif its legal?...I'm in the IT sector, so no unions to speak of.
 
You should check with the DETE employment rights/redundancy section for information about your statutory entitlements. Non statutory redundancy entitlements are a contractual matter and/or a matter for negotiation.

www.entemp.ie
 
...

thanks for the links...i might add that we were all given 6 weeks so its all fairly kosher as far as terms...I can't figure from these docs wether forcing people to take any other vacancy or forfeit statutory redundancy is legal or correct...afterall the manager of the deparmtent you end up haviong to apply to will know you're not up for it and just turn you down...and then what? surely, you're still entitled to redundancy then, are you not?
 
Have just been through a similiar situation myself, basically if you apply for and are offered a position in the company on the same pay and you do not accept it then you forfeit redundancy....

However, if you do not apply for any of the available positions then you are not in that situation and are entitled to redundancy as normal.
 
I don't think so......

Wavejumper,

Your question "if you do not wish to apply to the jobs on offer then you automatically forfeit any right to a redundancy payment" - this is definitely not the case.

Some employers might like to think it is, and it may help to reduce a claim in the EAT but if your terms and conditions are being changed without your explicit agreement then this is illegal.

Hope it works out
MAC
 
.,.

thanks puffy...would you happen to know what happens if the position they offer involves a lower salary, but you only find out after you applied for it, and then you turn it down?
 
Re: .,.

Contacting the DETE for information about your statutory rights in this situation might be a more expedient way to progress.
 
"offered a lower salary"

This would be deemed to be unacceptable and they would have to offer a package otherwise it's off to the EAT and .... winner alright!

MAC
 
...

0: thanks I'll certinly do that.

Mac: afte the meeting it transpires that until my final day in this position, HR will assist in placing me in another position...they however stressed that if it gets to the last day and I still have not found anything, should they find "any" vacancy they deem suitable and I refuse to apply for it in that case I would forfeit my redundancy...I'll call DETE and double check on this as it sounds horses*it...

also last night, despite not having called a recruitment agency in 2 years I found a message on my mobile from an external recruitment agency asking me if I was looking for work...coincidence, or maybe kind HR decided to break a couple of data privacy laws and pass my details outside...I'll look into that too...
 
Something smells rotten alright

Wavejumper,

"should they find "any" vacancy they deem suitable and I refuse to apply for it in that case I would forfeit my redundancy" - I wouldn't mind fighting this one at the EAT, they are way off the mark here. Can I ask is this a big organisation, if so presumably they would have taken legal advice. I would say they are bluffing big time! What kind of package is being offered ie. 5 WPY?

"I found a message on my mobile from an external recruitment agency asking me if I was looking for work" - I would ask the agency exactly where they got your mobile number from - this does sounds very sinister.

Sometimes it pays to be paranoid!

MAC
 
As far as I know they are likely to offer you the position at the same salary, if the salary is lower than your present salary then this is a fair reason for turning down the offered position.... Or you can push for the salary to be increased

Have a look at this link [broken link removed]
 
MAC

called both DETI and the Dataprotection agency:

DETI: if they offer me a position that is suitable to my skills and current salary and I refuse it I might have a hard time to claim redundancy but it really depends on what is being offered. Otherwise I can stand my ground as they say I've got every right to refuse any other position that does not suit my skills or that involves a substantial drop of income...

FYI, yea the company is a major IT outfit, they are probably offering only statury package, they are not being open about what the package will be, they are just stressing that they will consider it only as a last option...all my department is non-irish so i get the feeling HR is playing on the naivety of some of us...some of us.
Its all really a big cost cutting excercise, the new location costs a tenth of Dublin and they are pressurising everyone to get another job here or possibly outside so they don't have to pay us redundancy...nevermind these companies got so many tax cuts in the last ten years. and now off the cheaper shores...what a deal.


As far as the agency call, it turns out I had sent them my details a year ago, or so they say...i'll let that one pass.
 
Re: MAC

they are probably offering only statury package
Click to expand...

They certainly cannot abrogate your right to statutory redundancy, whatever about non-statutory redundancy, by putting terms & conditions on your qualification for same. In the case where a company can't/won't pay statutory redundancy or other outstanding entitlements (pay in lieu of notice or holidays etc.) then the employee may be able to claim the outstanding amounts from the DETE's Redundancy or Insolvency Payments Sections:

www.entemp.ie/erir/red2.htm
 
puffy

thanks for the link...the employer gets a 60% rebate on the lump sum paid to the employee...does that mean the employer gets back 60 per cent of the redundancy money paid to the employee? from who? the government? that can't be right.
 
Re: puffy

As far as I know that's correct - the employer can claim a rebate of 60% of statutory redundancy paid. However that's arguably neither here nor there in this situation or to employees in general who usually just want to ensure that they get their statutory (or non statutory) entitlements.

www.entemp.ie/erir/red2-gp.htm
 
thanks

thanks to all for the answers, I have a better picture now.
 
Wavejumper...

"the company is a major IT outfit, " - same goes for me, hope it's not the same one :)

"they are probably offering only statury package, " - that would be EXTREMELY unusual, the par for the course is 5-6 weeks per year. They don't like bad publicity, IDA grant issues etc. Could they prove inability to pay more that the stat. in the EAT - I doubt it.

An important point is that the 60% that they get back from the redundancy fund is only 60% of the stat amount - if your are below 41 years of age that is minimal (used to be a half a weeks pay per year, not sure about now). So if they paid 5 WPY then they would get no rebate on the additional 4.5WPY.

In any event it sounds like they are bluffing big time, but I hope it works out for you.

MAC
 
Re: Wavejumper...

if your are below 41 years of age
Click to expand...

I think this restriction has been dropped in recent legislation. It was found to be "aegist" by the EU.

Section 10 of the Redundancy Payments Act 2003 (Commencement) Order 2003 provides for a new enhanced entitlement of two weeks statutory redundancy payment for every year of service, regardless of age, rather than the present half week between 16 and 41 and one week over 41. The present bonus week and employer 60% rebate will continue.


Calculation of Lump Sum.
Twoweeks pay for each year of employment continuous and reckonable between the ages of 16 and 66 years
in addition, a bonus week. When the total number of days is ascertained, any remaining number of days if such a number comes to 182 (26 weeks) or more, is regarded as an extra year.
Reckonable service is service EXCLUDING ordinary sickleave over and above 26 weeks, occupational injury over and above 52 weeks , maternity leave over 18 weeks and career breaks over 13 weeks in a 52 week period.
Reckonable service also excludes absence from work because of lay-offs or strikes. However, short-time work is reckonable.
All calculations are subject to the ceiling referred to above, which at present stands at €507.90 per week.
Please note that you can now check a calculation at the online redundancy calculator www.redcalc.entemp.ie
Click to expand...

[broken link removed]

Ajapale
 
Clarification...

Thanks Ajapale for the clarification,

I see that the ceiling has been increased to €507 - an improvement but still not great!

So Wavejumper, the statutory entitlement would not be (for say 5 years service) 5 x 2 x 507 (even if you were on 60-70k p.a. so you would be entitled to €5k. I think your emploer would still be able to claim back 60% of that through the redundancy fund so the next cost to them would be 3k.

Most (even half decent IT co.s) would be paying 5 WPY and if you were on say 40k they calculation would be 5 x 5 x 800 (€20k of which they could still claim back the 3k making their net costs 17k). This is a 5 month payback and I find it hard to believe that this would not be seen as cost effective if the pressure was on. My previous points about bad publicity still apply.

MAC
 
Re: Clarification...

Most (even half decent IT co.s) would be paying 5 WPY
Click to expand...

Not in my experience. But maybe small startups are different or don't fit the description above?
 
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