re accounts and fees

leghorn said:
Spreadsheets can end up a tangled mess, and are more prone to errors.
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All software, ready made accounts software and spreadsheets alike are all subject to the GIGO rule. If the person does not have a basic understanding of what is supposed to go where and why, errors will occur.

I do find, especially for small businesses, that spreadsheets work very well once set up. I have a number of templates which I have provided to cllients which they complete and I find it works well. It's easier for them and I get the records in a manner which makes it faster for me to complete, we both benefit.

leghorn said:
Try writing a PRSI macro for example.
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For payroll I would recommend simple software as the computations for PRSI in particular is not easy to fully cover in spreadsheets. As far as PRSI self-employed is concerned, you can do the computations on ROS.
 
rabbit said:
lol its very easy to win the lotto. Just get the right numbers.

What if many different friends / family cannot think of any accountants who do not charge an arm and a leg ?
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Then they can always resort to trolling on websites.

Good luck to you
 
rabbit said:
lol its very easy to win the lotto. Just get the right numbers.

What if many different friends / family cannot think of any accountants who do not charge an arm and a leg ?
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Then clearly set out what you want done, the basic size and extent of the business and the records maintained. Set out what you expect the accountant to do, i.e. is it just year end tax & accounts or bookkeeping also. Have this as clear as possible and you can use that to get quotes. A mechanic will not give you a quote to repair a car unless they see it and get some basic understanding of what is needed to be done. The same goes for accountants. There is no mystery, noone is "hiding charges". It is just not practical to give a quote on the phone without seeing what has to be done. Any accountant who gives out such quotes is a fool.
 
Spreadsheets certainly are more prone to errors or mistakes than purposely developed software.
You send templates to your clients, but they might change a formula, or forget to recalculate something etc.
Spreadsheets have their purpose, but to use them to run a business would be folly.
Use the correct tools for the task.

(I can't really believe I'm even discussing this, the merits of purposely developed software Vs spreadsheets. is this the 80s?)
 
ubiquitous said:
Then they can always resort to trolling on websites.
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That would not get the accounts / tax returns done. No more than real life accountants who spent their time trolling their profession on websites

Anyway, to answer the original posters question " can anyone recommend where i can learn to do my accounts for a small business. i have looked at sage etc and they are not very relevant.accountants fees are exorbitant cheers"
maybe some college beside you has evening courses etc ? Or get a good book ? Things like vat returns and VIES returns are easy - once you do one or two you get in on it and its easy, if quite repetitive after that. The ROS website is quite easy to use too. Do not be intimidated by the "experts" who may not have your best welfare / interests at heart.
 
leghorn said:
(I can't really believe I'm even discussing this, the merits of purposely developed software Vs spreadsheets. is this the 80s?)
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The tools should always fit the job for which they are intended to be used in.

I have many clients using purposely developed accounting software. However I do not agree that it is "folly" for certain businesses to be using spreadsheets. One of many examples I could give is a carpentry sub-contractor with one bank account, all sales on invoices, say 20-30 invoices a year, very few purchases other than motor & tools/repairs. A cash book, bank Jnl & VAT spreadsheet will be more than adequate for them to fulfil their statutory obligations on record keeping. They can be easily tailored/tweaked to fit different businesses.

I have a retail client with in excess of €1Mpa turnover who successfully runs everything on spreadsheets(except payroll). On the other hand I have a lady doing bookkeeping services part-time with t/over <€20Kpa who uses The Big Red Book. Horses for courses comes to mind.

( Incidentally while I have no connection with the Big Red Book I find it a great package for small retail or service businesses to use )
 
Even that simple example can get surprisingly messy very quickly. For example, how does he track customers, who has paid? It would be far better for the person to use purpose made software. If he want to do up some charts of sales figures, then fire up the spreadsheet.

The tools should always fit the job for which they are intended to be used in.
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I don't believe people should be using spreadsheets to run their businesses.

How does your retail client deal with;
-audit trails
-collaboration (how many people use this spreadsheets?)
-knowledge transfer
-security
and of course, errors.
Roughly 94% of spreadsheets deployed in the field contain errors, and 5.2% of cells in unaudited spreadsheets contain errors
(source) http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/spreadsheet/product_pubs.html

It really is shocking how backwards some companies are when it comes to IT
 
leghorn said:
For example, how does he track customers, who has paid?
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Believe me, most small carpentry sub-contractors will know without ever looking up the records at all, who has paid and who hasn't.


leghorn said:
How does your retail client deal with;
-audit trails
-collaboration (how many people use this spreadsheets?)
-knowledge transfer
-security
and of course, errors.
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To date, very well.
 

In my experience, this is very, very commonplace - and works well in most cases.

Graham_07 said:
Believe me, most small carpentry sub-contractors will know without ever looking up the records at all, who has paid and who hasn't.
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Agreed.
 
How does your retail client deal with;
-audit trails
-collaboration (how many people use this spreadsheets?)
-knowledge transfer
-security
and of course, errors.

To date, very well.
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I don't believe you are qualified to be giving such systems analysis 'advice' to your clients.
Stick to the bean counting.
 
Graham_07 said:
I have a retail client with in excess of €1Mpa turnover who successfully runs everything on spreadsheets(except payroll).
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leghorn said:
I don't believe you are qualified to be giving such systems analysis 'advice' to your clients.
Stick to the bean counting.
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I don't recall saying that I did advise in connection with that system, either its set up or implementation as it existed on my taking on the appointment. However as I said, both the owner and I find it works well for the particular circumstances of that case.

Would you need Sage to count beans or would a spreadsheet do
 
one thing doing your own bookkeeping, vat and paye. Entirely different story doing your form 11s/ct1s. Should in all cases be left to a qualified accountant. I am an accountant.
 
Most accountants and tax advisors can not give a definite answer to "how much will it cost?" without knowing a lot more about your requirements and the running of your business.

This will depend on a lot of things - how many invoices you raise, how many invoices you receive from suppliers, whether or not you do your own bookkeeping, whether your records will be in good order, the size of the business (e.g. if you are a consultant and only raise 12 invoices a year or so, and your only expenses are travel and use of home and stationery the cost will be considerably lower that if you run a retail outlet with hundreds of transactions a week, any many different suppliers). Will you do your own VAT returns? Do you run a Limited Company? Do you have payroll requirements? Do you use bookkeeping software or spreadsheets? Do you need an audit?

To give an accurate fee quote you really need to attend an initial meeting with an advisor so that they can have a feel of your requirements, and they will then be able to quote accordingly.
 
thanks for advice guys i do all my own vat returns so it is just end of year accounts. another quick question i do my paye and prsi levies 3 monthly it is simple enough.i think. i have no paye levies but i tell my accountant what wages i pay and he works out the prsi. i would like to know the formula .this would probably save me something again rgds jimmymac12
 
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