Public Service Ding Dong Posts removed from other threads as "off topic"

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Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

THere is so much fiction on this thread, it is hard to know where to start, or even to decide if it is worth bothering, but here we go.

1) The CSO earnings data including overtime, bonuses and irregular earnings shows increases in the average hourly earnings in Q1 2009 for industry, manufacturing, utilities and financial intermediation. [Financial intermediation is showing a year-on-year decrease]. See [broken link removed]

2) The pension levy is a very real pay cut across the entire public sector. It has only the most tenuous of connections with pension. It is called a pension levy simply as that was the vehicle that allowed it to be legally imposed. Those who get no public sector pension pay the levy.

3) Many public sector jobs have been lost. Contract and temporary staff are all being cut off as their contracts expire. Retiring staff are not being replaced. The private sector does not have a monopoly on the misery of job losses.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves


Apologies if responding to you annoys you, just some darned private sector efficiency !!! ;-)
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Betsy Og said:
Apologies if responding to you annoys you, just some darned private sector efficiency !!! ;-)
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The problem is I can't quote your posts so have to write all of what you have said out again.

Just to be clear I'm self employed (restoring sash windows and other stuff) the only work connection I have to the PS is the taxes I pay.

RTE is supposed to be self funding isn't it...license, fee advertising selling programs and other stuff.

Since you have picked out particular people I have done the same Gardai and prison officers are not civil servants so my point stands...it is very rare for civil servants to get overtime.

As for the 'story' on sick leave please provide a link that says staff in revenue have to take a set number of days sick leave (I'll bet you a pint you can't! Winnings to be collected at the 10th anniverary).
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I considered closing the thread down, but I think some of the points being made are important under the "media myths" topic.

It comes down to how the media portray this current civil war. It's nothing new they do it with everything, but in order to get "balanced" views they present the two extremes of any argument rather than someone with a sense of perspective. We all know the truth is somewhere in the middle, but we just don't get to hear it or read it.

So I know it got a bit touchy there in the middle, but I feel some of the points being made in response to arguments are valid and valid in the context of the OT. Maybe mods may disagree.

I don't believe that there should be any banning or moderation of PS/CS bashing in short I don't see why they should have special protection on this forum. Many arguments put forward on a variety of subjects are rants, illogical, knee-jerk reactions and sometimes incredulous, yet we allow them and more importantly allow people to respond with a more rational perspective.

However... I do wonder whether we should bring up sickness levels given the C&AG's report. While the stats are still fairly shocking, it will be interesting to see how the media plays this one. I'll give it a quick guess, Kevin Myers or similar to slate the PS, some extreme Union Official to defend the PS.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Since you have picked out particular people I have done the same Gardai and prison officers are not civil servants so my point stands...it is very rare for civil servants to get overtime.
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This is true. My brother is a civil servant - the concept of overtime does not exist for him - I believe it only applies to low paid clerical staff. As civil servants are "officers" of the State, they are expected to work the necessary hours to get the job done. If he works late, which he does regularly, he gets no payment for any extra hours worked. If he comes in for an extra day on a weekend, again, he gets no extra payment. His conditions of employment say he must work a min. of 41 hours a week. Weekly salary paid is exactly the same regardless of whether he works the min. 41 hours or 60 hours.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Maybe I'm missing something as regards the distinction between Public Servants and the Civil Service, I've never lived in that parallel universe so forgive my ignorance. As I said, the only reason either catergory might concern me is the costs being racked up by the employees in those areas are being paid for by our taxes .... or more pointedly by runaway borrowings.

Of course it wont say anywhere you have to take sick days as holidays, but only yesterday an independent report came out to say sick days in the public sector are far higher than in the private sector (seems teachers are an exception, but sure its not like they are short of days off), so the point being is they are being used as such. If this was a debate on Norn Iron I'm sure I'd get away with saying "The reality of the sit-ye-ation" is that they are being used as such.

Basically I hate waste, in my own money, in food, in materials etc etc. Now maybe that makes me small minded or something, but when a country is broke, and more widely in the world resources are becoming scarcer, it is rather galling to see blatant examples of waste in government spending. Time to stop the rot. Time the unions got real.

IMHO unions are now basically a club for slackers, lets all band together and no-one will question our performance or cosy terms. If people had faith in their own abilities they wouldnt need a union, they'd rise to the top and natural selection would see the wasters at the back of the pack getting culled, and the herd as a whole would be better - natural geographic or the likes will show you the blood and guts version from Africa any night of the week.

Unions are damaging as they lead to the flight of foreign industry, meaning Irish jobs. Guys with long service angling for a sweet redundancy deal, no regard for the lad in the door trying to pay his mortgage. The question is are the government prepared to accept the nonsense that foreign employers are not???
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

You hear people are expected to take sick days in Revenue! Well that was from someone who worked there for years so unless theres been a regime chance of late it definitely was the case.




Here we go again. You know one dishonest lazy so and so and use him and a few of his mates (presumably) as an example of an entire organisation. I know lots of people who have worked in Revenue over the years and have never, ever treated sick leave like an extension of annual leave.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves


Well fair enough if you want to disregard that anecdotal evidence, but have you any views on yesterdays report that said public sector sick days far higher than private sector?
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I heard an interview with a CPSU union rep on RTE yestereday - the C&AG report found that the level of uncertified sick leave was an average of 1.3 days. This means that the vast majority of the sick leave counted by the C&AG office would then appear to be certified sick leave.

This seems to disprove the "couldn't be bothered to come in on a Monday" or the "I've got 7 days uncertified a year so will take them regardless" myths which are out there.

If almost all of the sick days are certified, it means that the person visited a GP, was assessed as being sick and received a medical certificate to cover their absence from work.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Betsy Og said:
Well fair enough if you want to disregard that anecdotal evidence, but have you any views on yesterdays report that said public sector sick days far higher than private sector?
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I would suspect, if you really broke this down, you would find that a small number of dishonest public servants (such as your friend) are abusing sick leave. This is an even bigger annoyance to other public servants than it is to you. Not only are our taxes paying for these lazy f*ckers to doss off, but we also have to do their bo*ody work for them while they're out. Believe me, services don't suffer, Civil Service colleagues do. We would have no problem with people systematically abusing sick leave being sacked and the doctors in the private sector who casually issue certs for no reason and collude in the 'rip off', being severely sanctioned in some way.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Well I don't hear your Unions complaining about it
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I agree. And they should. The rest of us don't want to be tarred with the same brush as a dishonest minority.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

gipimann said:
If almost all of the sick days are certified, it means that the person visited a GP, was assessed as being sick and received a medical certificate to cover their absence from work.
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Doctors handing out certs like confetti are part of the problem. It still doesn't explain why certified sick leave is still higher than in the civil service than the private sector. The private sector can't be that much healthier.

Sick leave needs to be tackled but it's too easy to blame individual workers taking advantage (I am sure there are many in both sectors who do). There are many reasons why sick leave can be higher. It is usually a sign of a mis-managed organisation so we should probably look to the culture and management of the civil service if we are looking to discover the reasons for the high levels of sick leave.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

It should also be remembered that there are many Public Servants who succumb to serious illnesses such as cancer, heart disease or clinical depression and could need to take months and months of sick leave. I suspect the public sector would treat these people more compassionately than many (not all, I stress) private employers and allow them as much time as they need, secure in the knowledge that their job will still be there when they are better, and this would also skew the figures somewhat.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I worked in the public sector and my manager told me to use my remaining uncertified sick leave when I needed to take a day off and had no vacation days left. I abused sick leave regularly and so did many of my colleagues. I see it now in private sector too but not to same extent (and even less in the past 12 months...)
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Well, your Manager should have been sacked. I have never, ever been told my a Manager to take sick leave when I needed time off and this would be considered a disciplinary action in the Civil Service.

What area of the PS did you work in? From your experiences, it seems to have been a pretty shoddy operation.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

liaconn said:
I agree. And they should. The rest of us don't want to be tarred with the same brush as a dishonest minority.
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I think this is the harm the Unions will do the the overall views on the PS/CS. They're taking advantage of the media's incompetence in order to push a certain agenda. However, it's likely that they'll come out in opposition and in defence of their members to this report.

I don't think the timing is in anyway coincidental and I do believe it will cause significant harm to the current perceptions.

However, it's clear that there is a spread of "unqualified" leave in terms of who is taking advantage. But it points to a bigger issue relating to points raised in the defence of the PSCS. The C&AG has, in previous reports, been critical of the advances made in reform of the PSCS. While some departments have made strides others haven't.

The issue of absenteeism as a factor in this. The push for improved HR management hasn't been achieved, fancy computer systems and more HR officers aside, true reform just hasn't taken place. The C&AG Office has reports going back over 10 years on this.

The overall stat is that there is 5% absenteeism. Considering the estimated (sorry csirl) absenteeism from an significant increae in swine flu is 10%, that's a bit worrying. Absenteeism within the PSCS in a normal year is 50% of a pandemic.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

becky said:
We get get full pay when we get. You are also allowed 2 days uncertfied before you have to produce a cert.

I honestly believe if the scheme wasn't so good the sick leave would reduce overnight.
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I get the same in the private sector and we don't suffer those levels of sick leave.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Re GPs handing out certs - I recall many years ago (when I was in the civil service myself) being told that there were a number of GPs whose medical certs would not be accepted because they were "too easy to get". I presume that this non-acceptance guideline is still possible if HR feel that certs from any GP are "too easily got".

From my own perspective, since I have to make an appointment to see my GP (and generally have to wait several days to get one), and pay €50 to get a cert, I don't go looking for certs at the drop of a hat!
 
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