Public Service Ding Dong Posts removed from other threads as "off topic"

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Betsy Og

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Re public sector, the wider public mood senses the need for cuts so lets get it on, let 'em strike until the unions are bankrupt, maybe then we can get back to business.

The private sector pays what it is profitable to pay - & more usually gives you the road unless you are contributing to profit. The public sector is like employees of a bankrupt firm, they have to go.

Why oh why are these union chiefs not told that its irrelevant how much the private sector is paying or employing, it doesnt cost the state a penny, in fact it contributes to the state in taxes & PRSI.

On the other hand the employer of your public sector members is bankrupt and the entire nation is not happy to borrow endlessly to keep the worlds biggest sheltered employment scheme afloat. No mon, no fun.
 
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Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Your right Betsy. To listen to the media with the possible exception of Mat Cooper you would think 80% of workers were public servants.

I am just looking at RTE news at 6. They lead with this story, and filled the story with Union leader statements with the usual footage of guards etc. They had a 3 sentence piece of Lenihan. The now have McLoon in the studio giving him airtime. Employer bodies hardly got a mention. I agree with you Betsy that the Irish people are not stupid but there are alot that are only informed by this rubbish and this is where the poster has highlighted a point. McLoon is still sticking to the line that the PS have had a paycut already, even though all this was is to be asked to pay for their own pensions. Like everyone else (that can afford one). I suppose if you have had it sooo good you would fool yourself in this way. This is a guy who was on the FAS board and is now saying how the country should be run. He will be off having a pint with Bertie later no doubt. Unions will try to destroy this country for their own self interest.
Is there anyway for truth and balance to be brought to this and where irish people can show their resistance to these PS unions???
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Betsy Og said:
The private sector pays what it is profitable to pay
Click to expand...
Fascinating - What profits are AIB paying their 3% increase from?

Betsy Og said:
Why oh why are these union chiefs not told that its irrelevant how much the private sector is paying or employing, it doesnt cost the state a penny, in fact it contributes to the state in taxes & PRSI.
Click to expand...
How many billion did Anglo contribute to the state last year? How many billion did AIB contribute?
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Complainer said:
Fascinating - What profits are AIB paying their 3% increase from?


How many billion did Anglo contribute to the state last year? How many billion did AIB contribute?
Click to expand...

Point 1 you are correct on. This is a disgrace.

point 2 is selective as these companies number but 2 among the thousands of companies in Ireland that employ people, a large number (far more than the entire civil service) are effected by a 10%+ paycut if they still have a job at all. You just dont hear the media harp about these people on a daily basis. I guess there is no one or two people like these union leaders who can be a voice for the majority, or to give sound bite interviews to a lazy media.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Bailing out AIB or other banks is not something I agree with, but as it happens I heard they were forced into the pay rise by the LRC or Labour Court, so we cant blame them for that.

FF out, if its not propping up the bubble or its fall out, its being weak kneed with unions.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

How has yet another thread turned into Public Service bashing??? Is there no end to this?
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

liaconn said:
How has yet another thread turned into Public Service bashing??? Is there no end to this?
Click to expand...

I probably should have known it would lead to such. But my honest intention was to highlight media reporting/bias/failure understand on important issue.

However, I think we're going to be in for an escalation of anger towards the PS over the next few months.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Recent CSO research shows that relatively few people in the private sector have had pay cuts. Have you seen other research supporting your "a large number (far more than the entire civil service) are effected by a 10%+ paycut" claim?
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Well the 400,000 on the dole at the moment are more than the entire 300,000 in the PS. Many of these lost their jobs this year equating to a 100% cut!
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Complainer said:
Recent CSO research shows that relatively few people in the private sector have had pay cuts. Have you seen other research supporting your "a large number (far more than the entire civil service) are effected by a 10%+ paycut" claim?
Click to expand...

There's additional research from IBEC which has run a quartely survey (the CSO figures are only for the first quarter), this would indicate it is more common than the CSO report as the year has progressed.

In addition, the CSO figures only relate to basic pay rate and it is true that many employers haven't cut the basic rate. However, this is due in part to difficulties achieveing agreement for this type of cut. What the CSO doesn't account for is other cuts. Moving to a three day week wouldn't be picked up by the CSO because the hourly rate is still the same. Cutting overtime wouldn't be picked up, cutting shifts wouldn't be picked up, cutting shift rates wouldn't be picked up, unpaid leave wouldn't be picked up, stopping bonuses wouldn't be picked up, etc. Biggest of all is redundancies, the CSO figures don't account for this cut.

The net effect is that overall take home pay has been cut significantly in the private sector. However, there are some employers who aren't doing as badly or haven't seen any significant effects and are still giving pay rises. On balance it is around the 10%, though if you take generally ok industries like Pharmachem, it's closer to 25%.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

fobs said:
Well the 400,000 on the dole at the moment are more than the entire 300,000 in the PS. Many of these lost their jobs this year equating to a 100% cut!
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Most of these were on the dole right through the good times - probably about 250k of them.

So probably 150k extra on the dole out of a workforce of 2 million. This equals 7.5% of the population which coincidently is the average percentage contraction of the economy that most economists are predicting this year. Private sector has laid off 7.5% and cut the wages of some of its workforce, public sector has levied its workforce 7.5% and laid off some of its workforce (temp workers). Average wealth in the country is reduced by 7.5% (the contraction in the economy).

Private sector has taken a mainly cut jobs approach, public sector has taken a cut pay approach. It seems like both public and private sector have taken equal amounts of pain to date.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Also, Public Servants have taken pay cuts but must still work the same amount of hours. Where Private Sector workers have taken pay cuts it's usually for reduced hours. I realise it's involuntary and financially as hard a hit but it's still reduced pay for reduced hours.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves


I think we're continuing the opportunities to have a go at the private sector. But additional pension contributions are also a feature of the private sector due to the problems with DB pension schemes. However, private sector employees would always have been paying pension contributions, they just now have to pay more to keep the fund afloat.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I'm not 'having a go' , I'm just responding to a part of your previous post where you stated that the CSO wouldn't pick up on workers who were on reduced hours. That was an important point that you made, but it was also important to point out that it wasn't that simple.

Anyway, this seems to be sliding back to a public-v-private row.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves


Where are your getting info from. Its amazingly selective. The private sector is getting both jobs losses and paycuts, up to 25% in some instances. The public sector were asked to pay for their own pensions with not a single job axed yet!. As much as the unions spin this it's not a paycut. Again to that second posters point, ordinary worker people who have to pay for their own faltering pensions will never be convinced that PS workers beens asked to contribute to their 'guaranteed' pension is anything close to a paycut. And where are you getting the private sector paycut is mostly reduced hours. Not the reality by a country mile! It's because PS are so removed from the reality of most Irish people with these kind of asumptions that makes people so angry. We even have union leaders coming out and saying this should be addressed through work practises.. What to hell was benchmarking about?? Why cant benchmarking go the other way?? Unions for years harped on about inflation, now that we have deflation they dont want want to know. As for complainers CSO figures these do not reflect (at the CSO's own admission) the declining reality of like with like. They were a limp attempt to try and put credence to some claims. As the say you can prove with physics that an elephant can fir through the eye of an needle but the reality is simply different. The ESRI figures were more acurate and even ventured on the conservative side as it didn't fully factor the guaranteed pension return and job security.
Its no wonder people are so angry.
It's not public service bashing it's just not fair on the rest of the population to prop up this nonsense when the country cant afford it.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves


Sorry, wasn't saying you were having a go, apologies if it seemed I were. I was trying to say that it could continue the row.

You're right to bring up the pension levy, but it's also important to put into the context that many on DB schemes have had to face the same issue in the private sector. Additional pension contributions are not the reserve of the public sector.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves


You can shout and scream all you like, but the facts show that the contraction of the economy will be a single figure percentage, probably in the 5-8% range. Like it or not, this means that the average person in Ireland will be 5-8% poorer - not anything close to the 25% figures that you are quoting.
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves


That's all well and good if you are average!

It's not unreasonable to assume that some people will be 25% poorer while some who won't lose their jobs will be static (eg - public sector workers)
 
Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves


What a rant!

The pension levy is a pay cut. We are not getting anything extra for it, so it is a pay cut. Whether you agree with the principle behind it or not, it is disingenuous to say it's not a cut.

My point about Private Sector workers taking a pay cut for working reduced hours was a response to another poster who said that reduced hours were not taken into account in the CSO report.

I suggest you read posts properly and answer coherently instead of just venting. I actually had to read your post several times to get any sense of what you were saying.
 
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