elacsaplau
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Yes, that's the principle underlying all pension funds governed by Trust Deed and Rules, that the fund can trundle on if the employer goes bust.
Though ironically reality seems to have exceeded expectation in most situations.
My expectations were always low on that frontDuke - so I suppose we can surmise that the hot date does often go well - giving rise to not alone a free lunch but breakfast also!
I think Colm is more ambitious for his proposal than being merely a Paddie solution to a Paddie problem.Oh, I was thinking about your crazy thought experiment - I think I can assuage your concerns of social upheaval on the island. The money will be invested overseas meaning that the Paddies get a higher slice of the worldwide cake. It then becomes, not an act of further inter-generational wealth transfer within Ireland, but rather a patriotic Paddies first measure. Mostly kidding around here....
Better go and do some real work now....
I'm no pensions expert, but I understand that the requirement you mention applies to schemes where there are active service employees and where employer pension contributions are required to ensure that promised benefits can be provided. For retired members, the employer is not making any further contributions, so the requirement doesn't apply. I nonetheless recognise the validity of the concerns that you and others have raised about the continued involvement of the employer post retirement. I spoke to a joint meeting of the IAPF/IIPM in Cork this morning, and an alternative approach, which does not involve the employer's continued involvement, was prompted by a comment from one of the attendees. (Thank you, John) I hope to produce Mark II of my proposals soon, to address this concern.The schemes with which I am familiar obliged the trustees to determine the scheme upon notice of cessation of employer contributions.
I accept that irredeemable bonds were an extreme example. Nevertheless, 10-year treasuries would also enjoy a substantial price pick-up from falling interest rates. Furthermore, we must recognise that the bull market in bonds of the last 30 years or so, when interest rates fell from double digits to low single digits, will not be repeated in future. The seed-corn of falling interest rates has been well and truly devoured.I wasn't talking about irredeemable bonds - my figures were based on 10 year treasuries and I don't see much confusion - certainly none that materially detracts from the substantial point.
I recognise the problem of DWT very well from my own investing activity. The Apple dividends that accrue to my ARF every quarter have 15% taken off the top, and I can't get the money back. It's nice not to have to pay CGT though. Also, the Irish and UK dividends paid to the ARF have no further tax deductions (except for UK REIT's - another hornet's nest!).Irish pension funds do not accumulate tax free! Very common misconception. No tax is levied in Ireland but other jurisdictions levy tax which may or may not be recoverable. Dividend With-holding Tax (DWT) in the US is the primary, but not exclusive example, of this.
Duke, you're absolutely right. I see this as a world-wide problem and I would like to see my proposed approach being applied world-wide eventually. I don't know if you're being serious with your thought experiment. If you are, there's no need to worry. The proportion of total investments represented by DC pensions is trivial in the wider investment world, so will have no material impact. Also, think of all the extra work there will be for young, able-bodied people if wrinklies have lots more cash to splash around!I think Colm is more ambitious for his proposal than being merely a Paddie solution to a Paddie problem
I spoke to a joint meeting of the IAPF/IIPM in Cork this morning, and an alternative approach, which does not involve the employer's continued involvement, was prompted by a comment from one of the attendees. (Thank you, John) I hope to produce Mark II of my proposals soon, to address this concern.
I recognise the problem of DWT very well from my own investing activity.
Not terribly serious but I do think the macro socio-economic aspects of pension provision are intriguing. Imagine a situation where the only factor of production was Labour. Then all pension provision would need to be by social transfers. Luckily capital is also a major factor of production. So a situation is plausible whereby the pensioner claim on society is based on its ownership of capital (supporting your proposal) and not on social handouts.I don't know if you're being serious with your thought experiment.
You're right! I expanded on the ideas in my February paper and submitted them to the DEASP as a possible solution to the Auto-Enrolment challenge. I attached them to Post #428 in the "New Sunday Time Feature - Diary of a Private Investor" thread. They were discussed later in that thread. I don't know if Brendan or someone else can transfer the discussion to this thread (which seems more logical) and also to change the title to include reference to AE. For ease of reference, I attach them again to this post.I understand it was the concerns about drawdown that inspired the solution. But why limit this just to folks entering drawdown stages? You mentioned elsewhere about an AE meeting recently, so maybe you already extended this proposal?
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