Proposed abortion Referendum

Delboy said:
A sledgehammer to crack a nut...hard cases are as it says, hard cases. They probably make up less than 10% of total pregnancies.

As per the stat put out by the No side, based on info from the NHS, 97% of abortions are on healthy, normal babies.
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But by voting No do you genuinely think you're saving the 90% or the 97% - if I thought I was I'd probably vote No, but voting No is just stimulating the market for airline and ferry traffic. So for the sake of the 10% I'm willing to save costs & hassle for the 90% I don't agree with. Keeping holy Catholic Ireland "abortion free" (which is the net practical effect of the status quo) is national delusion, I don't see the value is maintaining that pretence.
 
but it has noting to do with holy catholic Ireland anymore, at least not for the vast majority of people..
 
If the proposal was to change the constitution to allow for edge cases this would have passed with ease. Any No campaign would have got little traction and the issue may have largely gone away. This nuclear option seriously risks being rejected and ensures that whether it a yes or no the issue will not go away.

While I'm almost resigned to it to being a yes, the fact that it's not simple repeal gives me some solace. In a simple repeal situation a government could agree something in Europe - abortion is a service or a human right, or whatever - that a future government couldn't undo. I don't think that can happen if the Constitution says "Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy."
 
From what I've seen and read so far on this debate (some Posters here and Kathy Sheridan for instance in yesterday's IT), the Yes seem seem to have a bigger thing for God/Catholic Church than the No side!
 
Betsy Og said:
But by voting No do you genuinely think you're saving the 90% or the 97% - if I thought I was I'd probably vote No, but voting No is just stimulating the market for airline and ferry traffic.
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And when we have abortion here (for it will eventually come in), how many more abortions will there be v's the 3,250 currently recorded int he UK as being by Irish women last year? 10,000 is the figure I've seen bandied about which is what would put us on a par with the stats in England/Wales.

So for the sake of the 6,750 babies in the mix there (every year), I'll be voting No
 
Betsy Og said:
But by voting No do you genuinely think you're saving the 90% or the 97% - if I thought I was I'd probably vote No
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A No will save the lives of 1000's of unborn children every year. Irish abortion rates are somewhere between 1/3 and 1/4 that of Great Britain. It would be self-delusional to think that, on the introduction of a liberal abortion regime, our figures won't climb towards parity with Great Britain. Abortion on demand will lead to more demand for abortion. I hope that the middle ground will reject this proposal as too extreme.
 
Really??? I heard the same thing after the divorce referendum and how we will all be getting divorced. Never happened. Heard the same about same sex marriage and how all these gay people would be rushing out to get kids and family values would be destroyed. Hasn't happened. Now we are to believe that thousands of women will suddenly decide to have an abortion because they don't have to hop on a cheap Ryanair flight to the UK. Are we honestly saying that the only reason there aren't thousands more abortions every year is that women have to travel to London? Maybe it's simply because there isn't a demand for thousands more abortions and there still won't be that demand after this referendum....
 
Delboy said:
A sledgehammer to crack a nut...hard cases are as it says, hard cases. They probably make up less than 10% of total pregnancies.

As per the stat put out by the No side, based on info from the NHS, 97% of abortions are on healthy, normal babies.
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That 97% includes many hard cases (for example rape cases, incest, etc.) so as with a lot of this campaign it is a number intended to shock people.
 
I agree but I don't understand why people are comparing abortion to allowing adults to marry and divorce.
 
Purple said:
I agree but I don't understand why people are comparing abortion to allowing adults to marry and divorce.
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I'm not...Point is that campaigns like this are always run with one side predicting some sort of breakdown of normal society if there is a change. Had it with divorce. Had it with same sex marriage. Had it with Lisbon treaty etc etc etc........
 
Sunny said:
I'm not...Point is that campaigns like this are always run with one side predicting some sort of breakdown of normal society if there is a change. Had it with divorce. Had it with same sex marriage. Had it with Lisbon treaty etc etc etc........
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True
 
Purple said:
I agree but I don't understand why people are comparing abortion to allowing adults to marry and divorce.
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A better analogy would be the criticism of the Protection of Life During Pregancy Act, where it was said that we'd have loads of women pretending to be suicidal in order to obtain an abortion. It never materialised. Of the 25 cases under the Act in 2016, one was due to risk of suicide: https://health.gov.ie/blog/press-re...013-laid-before-the-houses-of-the-oireachtas/ . I for one am glad that the 24 other women in 2016 received the necessary treatment here in Ireland, and I want all those who require it, for whatever reason, also to receive treatment in Ireland.
 
Ceist Beag said:
That 97% includes many hard cases (for example rape cases, incest, etc.) so as with a lot of this campaign it is a number intended to shock people.
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Indeed but what % of that 97% are those hard cases? 5% or so max, couldn't be much more than that?
So again, a sledgehammer to crack a nut no matter what angle you look at it from.
 
Yes. Free and easy access to abortion will lead, over time, to the closing of the gap between the Irish rate and the British rate. "Are you going to keep it?" will be a common question. Abortion will become a normal option which will become easier to ratioanlise. I guess time will tell, but I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
 
Any result predictions? I wouldn't be at all confident of a Yes, I'm thinking 52/48 and could go either way.
 
Delboy said:
Indeed but what % of that 97% are those hard cases? 5% or so max, couldn't be much more than that?
So again, a sledgehammer to crack a nut no matter what angle you look at it from.
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I would disagree, it would say it is closer to 99.99% are hard cases. I don’t think very many women take the decision lightly. Instead a combination of concerns ranging from prospective life-changing career and educational opportunities, shame (perceived concern or real concern) of being a single mother, dependency on welfare, stigmitisation - “A crisis pregnancy is defined as ‘a pregnancy which is neither planned nor desired by the woman concerned, and which represents a personal crisis for her.’ This includes women for whom a planned or desired pregnancy develops into a crisis over time due to a change in circumstances.”

http://www.positiveoptions.ie/unplanned-pregnancy/what-is-a-crisis-pregnancy/

So an undesired or unplanned pregnancy is commonly labelled as a ‘crisis’, why?

The word crisis is defined as ‘a time of intense difficulty or danger’.

If a person finds themselves in a crisis, in any crisis, it is quite understandable to me that they will take whatever action they think is necessary to end the crisis.

In the case of homosexuals, for many in the past it was living a life of denial and enduring the stress and hardship that came with that, – fear of being outed, labelled as a sinner, criminalised by the State etc, or worse, committing suicide.

Those fears and anxieties have diminished greatly today.

In the case of women enduring a ‘crisis’ pregnancy, therefore, abortion is obvious option.

So perhaps, if we move to a point where we remove the notion of an unplanned pregnancy being a ‘crisis’, and instead move to a more tolerant, supporting society for pregnant women, regardless of their circumstances, then the motive to abort will reduce, perhaps even to the point of there being no demand for abortion?

The choice to decide what action to take should be in their hands.

Delboy said:
A sledgehammer to crack a nut...hard cases are as it says, hard cases. They probably make up less than 10% of total pregnancies.

As per the stat put out by the No side, based on info from the NHS, 97% of abortions are on healthy, normal babies.
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Btw - 'hard case' babies from rape and incest are normal babies too.
 
Betsy Og said:
I'm thinking 52/48 and could go either way.
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That chimes with what I think. I guess it may come down to turnout. The same sex marriage referendum was a much easier sell than this and that was 62/38 on a 60% turnout. The poll today said 44% yes, 32% no, 17% don't no, 7% won't vote . . I'd be surprised if the turnout was more then 60% and I suspect that a higher percentage of the nos than the yeses will vote, so it should be very close. It's not something I'd bet on but the value is perhaps No @ 5/2.
 
TheBigShort said:
The choice to decide what action to take should be in their hands.
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Do you regard the baby as having any rights?

fatherhood at a young ago or just if it is unplanned is also a life changing event and a similar stigmatisation can occur (sometimes it's worse because of the societal assumption that he's a dead-beat dad). There are major financial implications and if he's an engaged father then there can be a massive impact on his educational and career prospects. Do you think he should be able to have his child aborted?

People oppose abortion for all sorts of reasons. For many it has nothing to do with religion and nothing to do with wanting to oppress women; they simply think that it is wrong to vindicate one persons rights by removing the rights of another and the right to life is as fundamental as it gets.

The questions is at what stage an unborn child acquires the right to life. Leave the religion and social engineering, the bible belting and right-on liberalism out of it. This isn't just about a woman's body or else the feminist lobby would be proposing abortion right up to birth. The fact that they are not is a tacit acceptance that at some stage that unborn child acquired the right to life. The only real question here is when that happens.

I say that as a Yes voter.
 
Purple said:
Do you regard the baby as having any rights?
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Of course I do.


My point is not whether he should or should not be able, my point is what are the underlying reasons for anyone wanting an abortion in the first place? If even one of those reasons are societal attitudes of 'dead-beat dad', then like homophobia, racism, perhaps we should make efforts to eradicate or diminish the socio-economic prejudices that prevail in society that may lead to someone thinking they would not be a good father, or mother, or that their life is ruined.
I'm thinking a good place to start would be to stop labelling unplanned pregnancies as a 'crisis' pregnancy.
 
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