Promotion from open competition civil service -the old rules?

Sonic hedgehog

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Hi,
I notice there are some very knowledgeable people on askaboutmoney regarding civil service rules/circulars etc. So would appreciate your input!!!

I'm trying to understand circular 34/77.
(I'm aware this is now superseded but it applies to me for calculating a previous promotion).
As I read the circular, it means that if you are on the 15th point of your existing scale you go into the higher post at the 15th point of that scale and presumably get the salary at 15th point of the higher scale?

(Instead of the rule existing salary plus 2 increments)

Circular 34/77 says that where a serving civil servant secures a promotion by way of open competition
The following:
Pay on promotion to grades to which there is recruitment by open competition 3 (1) The rules at (1) and (2) of paragraph 2 will apply except that only such amount of an increment or increments on the higher scale as will bring an officer to the point he would have reached had all his service been in the higher grade will be granted. Where an officer's salary plus accrued increment, if any, is higher than the point he would have reached had all his service been in the higher grade he will be required to mark time on his salary plus accrued increment, if any, until that ceases to be in excess of the point referred to.
 
This is quite arcane stuff. Has your Union no advice on this? That's where I'd go in the first instance. How long ago was your promotion and are you trying to ascertain that you've been underpaid for a considerable period of time?
My understanding was that, generally, if you were promoted you couldn't end up worse off by being promoted. The going from, say 15th point of the HEO scale to 15th point of the APO scale, sounds wrong as you'd be getting a much greater benefit having just been promoted than those who had been promoted years before you.
 
Thanks. I'm not a union member.
I'm waiting for HR to get back to me.
It affects significantly the value of my pension (which I've recently applied for)
HR said they applied the rule "current salary plus 2 increments on new scale"
However I am aware that they used s.3 of Circular 34/77 (above)to require 2 colleagues to "mark time" from the same open competition.
Anyone familiar with this?
 
I note there is more in dispute that the reader or OP is inclined to readily see. How far back in time are you going regarding the promotion? There may be other promotions/assimilations since. It seems you may be entitled to quite an amount of backmoney if the promotion in question is several years old. Your pension amount is in question too. Then there are the incremental scales of what you have been paid and what you should have been paid. It's messy but the paper work on each of your promotions and increment increases should be easily available through your Personnel File.

I used to process promotions/assimilations in the public/civil service and there are several circulars which may have an input of whatever final figure is applicable. There are several factors in play when somebody is promoted in the civil or public service e.g length of time in the grade before promotion, the point of scale (or even off point in some instances) and the date of increment or even the time on the maximum of the scale. In my days of calculating I had a booklet at hand (written by me) detailing everything about each individual promotion. Sadly, since I retired I don't possess such "handbook" now.

You don't have union representation but you are entitled to see how the figure(s) of each promotion were processed. This information should be in your Personnel File. If it's not there's more amiss.
 
Thanks for your input Leper.
I should clarify-
There was only one promotion.
I was 15 years in my first job.
I applied through an open competition for a post with lower starting pay but higher ending pay- thus a promotion.
I was appointed to that higher position and put on 15th point of that scale.
A few months back after I indicated I was going to retire later this year, I was told that when I was promoted I was put on wrong pay point.
I've been told that I should have been put on my old salary plus 2 increments- ( I had served several years on my 2nd Lsi) when I got the promotion.
I don't think this is correct.
My understanding is that when you were appointed to a higher post under an open competition , the point at which you entered the scale was calculated as if all your service were in the higher post.
Isn't that what s.3 of Circular 34/77 says?
 
1. It was an open competitiion and you were not promoted; you were assimilated. Sorry for the jargon and there is a difference between promotion and assimilation. [you need to get a copy of your appointment papers and assimilation + how your new pay point was 'calculated'].
2. While I don't have the full amount of information and going on what you said I reckon your new point of pay on the assimilated grade of pay is wrong. It appears you were overpaid from the date you entered the new grade to the time you reached the maximum (plus possible later "add ons"). You may have worked overtime, extra duty hours etc too and may have been overpaid for these.
3. I don't know (facing retirement) how your current scale of pay came into question. Sounds like an extra vigilant HR officer. My gut feeling is you were placed on a higher scale point than you should have been. On the face of things I would settle on the amount of the dispute and hope HR didn't come after me for recouping the overpayment(s).

Apologies for the above, but I'm looking at your situation with a cold eye.
 
I dont believe it's assimilation as the new position has a higher nmax (before long service increments) than the old position.


And, if it was assimilation the rule existing pay plus 2 increments doesn't apply. - that's the rule hr want to apply now.- that rule applies to internal promotions in the civil service.

I'm finding it difficult to get any information from hr. They just say this is the rule- refer me to circular 34/77 but no further explanation.
I have a copy of the original advertisement on PAS to show the position was an open competition.
 
If you think about it logically there's no way that you should have been put on the 15th point of the promoted scale, it just doesn't make sense. You would be rewarding someone for being longer at a lower grade before being promoted than someone who gets promoted quickly through the grades.
Someone made a mistake with your original promotion pay scale and is now rectifying it, you need to go legal on this as you have been given a legitimate expectation that your pension would be significantly higher than what you're now going to get, through no fault of your own.
 
I dont believe it's assimilation as the new position has a higher nmax (before long service increments) than the old position.


And, if it was assimilation the rule existing pay plus 2 increments doesn't apply. - that's the rule hr want to apply now.- that rule applies to internal promotions in the civil service.

I'm finding it difficult to get any information from hr. They just say this is the rule- refer me to circular 34/77 but no further explanation.
I have a copy of the original advertisement on PAS to show the position was an open competition.

1. If you competed in an internal competition and were successful this would be called Promotion.
2. You didn't compete internally and entered an external competition while serving in a lower grade and were successful. You were not promoted into the new grade and therefore you were Assimilated. It is possible that words like "promotion" were used in explaining to you your position but these were probably jargon used to inform you that you were being credited with your past service towards your eventual pension while joining the new grade.
3. It might be in your interest to get a copy of the 'calculations' made in your entry point of your new grade. I don't think any HR would refuse such. Then you will have your question answered. I can't understand your difficulty in sourcing these papers as it's about two minutes work to photocopy and send to you. But, if they don't exist . . . . then you're left wonderin'.
4. From the information supplied by you I believe your HR unit is acting correctly regarding your pay. But, depending on your new grade entry it is possible that a "Management Decision" was made to place you on the higher scale point on which you were placed.
6. I'm answering your questions as honestly as I can. I wish I had kept my handwritten notes on promotions and assimilations along with the "handbook" of the same matter. Just on a point, the "rules" on assimilation and promotion were handed down to the Irish civil/public service from the British Post Office in the time of Queen Victoria.
7. I agree with Dereko in the previous post above with the exception of "going legal." Most likely there's no case to answer (my opinion).
 
1. If you competed in an internal competition and were successful this would be called Promotion.
2. You didn't compete internally and entered an external competition while serving in a lower grade and were successful. You were not promoted into the new grade and therefore you were Assimilated. It is possible that words like "promotion" were used in explaining to you your position but these were probably jargon used to inform you that you were being credited with your past service towards your eventual pension while joining the new grade.
3. It might be in your interest to get a copy of the 'calculations' made in your entry point of your new grade. I don't think any HR would refuse such. Then you will have your question answered. I can't understand your difficulty in sourcing these papers as it's about two minutes work to photocopy and send to you. But, if they don't exist . . . . then you're left wonderin'.
4. From the information supplied by you I believe your HR unit is acting correctly regarding your pay. But, depending on your new grade entry it is possible that a "Management Decision" was made to place you on the higher scale point on which you were placed.
6. I'm answering your questions as honestly as I can. I wish I had kept my handwritten notes on promotions and assimilations along with the "handbook" of the same matter. Just on a point, the "rules" on assimilation and promotion were handed down to the Irish civil/public service from the British Post Office in the time of Queen Victoria.
7. I agree with Dereko in the previous post above with the exception of "going legal." Most likely there's no case to answer (my opinion).
My point about going legal was not to march straight to the courts but to get advice from an experienced labour relations solicitor. I don't think there's a case but as you said earlier, not having to repay overpaid amounts would be a win and taking legal advice may well assist in that matter.
 
My point about going legal was not to march straight to the courts but to get advice from an experienced labour relations solicitor. I don't think there's a case but as you said earlier, not having to repay overpaid amounts would be a win and taking legal advice may well assist in that matter.
I know you mean well, Dereko, but the solution here would be a run-of-the-mill matter in most HR areas. Seeking legal advice will probably just mean more expense. But it ain't my money . . .
 
I very much appreciate the input.
This significantly affects my pension as I was on a different (higher) rate of pay for almost the last three years.
Under the new circular on promotion -applicable since 2018 (available on dper website) it defines a promotion as existing "where the normal maximum of the new salary is higher than the normal maximum of the old salary."

That was me.

I'm just frustrated that my HR wont give me any further info except that circular 34/77!
Which is very hard to understand!
 
You need to look at your letter of appointment to the new position. Does it say you were promoted? And, this is important, does it use the words 'starting salary on promotion'? Does it say how these were calculated, e.g. “subject to the provisions of . . .” You need to confirm this.

Concerning circular 34/77:

- Para 2(1) says you enter at a point equal to your exiting pay plus any accrued increment.

- Para 2(2) says if you were on the max of your scale for three years you “enter the new scale either (i) at the minimum or (ii) at a point equivalent to his existing pay plus two increments on the new scale, whichever is the greater, “.

- Para 3 states “3 (1) The rules at (1) and (2) of paragraph 2 will apply except that only such amount of an increment or increments on the higher scale as will bring an officer to the point he would have reached had all his service been in the higher grade will be granted “.

As you were promoted by open competition, para 3 applies. This says the rules of paras 2(1) and 2(2) apply “except that only such amount of an increment or increments on the higher scale as will bring an officer to the point he would have reached had all his service been in the higher grade will be granted.” I interpret this as meaning you only get pay and increments on promotion that bring your pay to the point you would have reached if you served all your career in the higher grade. Para 3(1) goes on to describe the procedures for marking time.

Note that this has all to do with pay and not your point on the higher scale, which is derived from the pay. It doesn't mean if you served 15 years on the lower scale you go to point 15 on the higher scale. I interpret it as meaning you go to a pay point on the higher scale equal to your existing salary plus accrued increments, and that such pay cannot exceed the pay you would have reached if all your service had been in the higher grade. (Of course, I stand open to correction on this.)

You say (post #3) " HR said they applied the rule "current salary plus 2 increments on new scale"." This implies they applied the provisions of para 2(2).

If you were on your 2nd LSI (post #5) it implies you were 3 years on the max of your scale plus two years of LSIs? If so the provisions of para 2(2) apply. So your HR appears to be correct. You should have got your existing salary including LSIs plus two increments on the higher scale. And you should have been put on a point on the higher grade with a pay not exceeding this amount.

You say (post #5) "I was appointed to that higher position and put on 15th point of that scale." So it appears someone in Personnel screwed up, misinterpreted the circular and put you on a higher point than you were entitled to. I'm not surprised by this in the slightest.

You should put in an FoI request for all documentation processed in relation to you in connection with your appointment to the higher scale. Furthermore, do not accept any attempt by your department to refer the matter to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, unless it is in your interest to do so. (This is a common ploy on personnel issues where a department screws up to divert attention from their mistake.)
 
Hi, PMU.
I was 3 years on the max of my scale, then 3 years on ls1 then 4 years on ls2.

Re: circular 34/77 paragraph 3 , there is an issue of interpretation.
I went to pay point and pay of that scale- that would be 15th point of the higher scale.

The thing is, the department also applied that rule in reverse to two colleagues who also got a promotion by open competition around the same time as me.
Each had 5 years service so they had to mark time on the 5th point of the higher scale (that point was lower than their existing pay) for about 2 years! Then they went to 6th point of higher scale etc.

I am aware that for certain lecturers, when they are promoted from open competitions their pay is calculated as if all their service is in the new grade.
So if they are 5 years on lower grade, they go to 5th point on higher grade.

The foi is a good idea. Thanks
 
Don't forget PMU's initial input:-
"You need to look at your letter of appointment to the new position. Does it say you were promoted? And, this is important, does it use the words 'starting salary on promotion'? Does it say how these were calculated, e.g. “subject to the provisions of . . .” You need to confirm this."

Have you got a copy of your letter of appointment and what exactly does it say? If you've haven't got it, you are entitled to a copy from your Personnel File.
 
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