Progress Irelands housing plan

[Purple]

Progress Ireland (I never heard of them before) are proposing that we allow small home or log cabin type housing to be built in existing gardens to alleviate our housing shortage.

From the link:

Executive Summary​

• Planning policy already allows homeowners to build structures in their gardens without planning permission, but they are not currently allowed to build a small home in their garden.
• We believe these rules should change. We should let people build small homes in their gardens.
• Progress Ireland’s modelling suggests that a seomraí (or ‘granny flat’) policy could deliver up to 350,000 new homes.
• Ireland can learn from successful ‘accessory dwelling unit’ (ADU) policies around the world.
• Progress Ireland has eight recommendations to make seomraí a success.

It actually looks like a good idea to me.

 

[Jazz01]

@Purple - never heard of Progress Ireland before, got some details here

 

[Leo]

Same here, just saw an article in the papers today pushing for garden sheds to be permitted as habitable space. Their insistence on using the term seomrai makes me wonder if there's any connection with Shomera.

If done correctly they can work, but the vast majority of these on the market here fall way short of minimum building standards.

 

[faketales]

Building small homes in the garden is one thing. Building small homes without planning permission is another.

 

[Takado]

The very notion that young Irish people should live in a hut at the end of their parent’s garden as a “solution” to the housing crisis is incredibly demeaning and should be dismissed out of hand. (Demeaning to both the parents and the adult children). There’s no excuse for this problem to persist long-term other than a total lack of ambition and competence on behalf of our government.

 

[faketales]

The very notion that young Irish people should live in a hut at the end of their parent’s garden as a “solution” to the housing crisis is incredibly demeaning and should be dismissed out of hand. (Demeaning to both the parents and the adult children). There’s no excuse for this problem to persist long-term other than a total lack of ambition and competence on behalf of our government.

Obviously it’s the parents that get sent to the glorified shed while their kids take over the house.

 

[bipped]

The very notion that young Irish people should live in a hut at the end of their parent’s garden as a “solution” to the housing crisis is incredibly demeaning and should be dismissed out of hand. (Demeaning to both the parents and the adult children).

No question that we need a solution soon as the lack of places to rent or buy is causing problems for many people, but this is a terrible idea. Renting a log cabin / sheomra type unit for a few weeks for a holiday is one thing, but living in one in someone's garden long term, and possibly with kids, doesn't sound great.

Why don't our councils allow 3/4 bed properties to be split into two separate units when the property is too big for the owners? Lots of older people may want to downsize but stay in the same area as they have space that is excess to their requirements. Changing a large house into two apartments (flats / maisonettes) seems to work well in our nearest neighbour, common in some parts of London.

 

[Marsupial]

The very notion that young Irish people should live in a hut at the end of their parent’s garden as a “solution” to the housing crisis is incredibly demeaning and should be dismissed out of hand. (Demeaning to both the parents and the adult children). There’s no excuse for this problem to persist long-term other than a total lack of ambition and competence on behalf of our government.

Nonsense. It's not proposed as anything more than a short-term, pragmatic solution to a a serious national problem that lies far beyond the capability of ANY government - irrespective of what blather they may come out with - to resolve in the short to medium term.

 

[Takado]

Nonsense. It's not proposed as anything more than a short-term, pragmatic solution to a a serious national problem that lies far beyond the capability of ANY government - irrespective of what blather they may come out with - to resolve in the short to medium term.

I’ve been around long enough to see plenty of these “short term, pragmatic solutions” still rolling on 20+ years later. The whole IPAS system is a good (but regrettable) example of this phenomenon. Patients on trolleys “until we can increase capacity”, kids being educated in “temporary” prefabs year after long year.. the list goes on. We need to stop fighting fires and start building fit for purpose infrastructure in all areas of the economy, starting urgently with housing. I’m exercised about this because I’m so sick of the short term solution mindset with no follow through and everyone seems to just smile and say “ah sure, there’s nothing any government could do about it”.

 

[Leo]

We need to stop fighting fires and start building fit for purpose infrastructure in all areas of the economy, starting urgently with housing.

One question, where do you suggest we find the people to do all that building?

 

[Purple]

I’ve been around long enough to see plenty of these “short term, pragmatic solutions” still rolling on 20+ years later. The whole IPAS system is a good (but regrettable) example of this phenomenon.

Patients on trolleys “until we can increase capacity”,

We have massively increased capacity but just like every other country in the developed world we have an aging population who are consuming ever greater amounts of healthcare (more accurately described as sick-care since healthcare should be about keeping people healthy).

kids being educated in “temporary” prefabs year after long year.. the list goes on.

Schools and school buildings are vastly better than they were 20-30 years ago. The mistake we've made is we've decreased pupil teacher ratio's which is very expensive and has been shown to have limited results.

We need to stop fighting fires and start building fit for purpose infrastructure in all areas of the economy, starting urgently with housing.

I agree but as Leo said, who do we get to do the building?

I’m exercised about this because I’m so sick of the short term solution mindset with no follow through and everyone seems to just smile and say “ah sure, there’s nothing any government could do about it”.

The problem is that the electorate won't vote for a government that seeks to enact long term solutions. Instead we get the stupid populist nonsense the Shinners come out with.
A question; would you vote for a government who wanted to impose property taxes at the same level as they have in France or America?

 

[Purple]

Why don't our councils allow 3/4 bed properties to be split into two separate units when the property is too big for the owners?

Because it would be incredibly expensive and extremely labour intensive which would take capacity away from the building of new homes.

 

[thedaddyman]

It's a nonsense solution and we need to move away from building huts for people to live in and build communities instead. We've wasted a lot of land in prime locations in this country by not building upwards.

According to the 2022 Census, we have 163k vacant homes in this country. Spend the effort on getting 50% of those back into use and we'd be in a much better place. Spend the money on getting the councils to speed up turnaround.

 

[Purple]

It's a nonsense solution and we need to move away from building huts for people to live in and build communities instead.

Who's talking about building huts?
What this proposal does is allows people to continue to live in their communities.

We've wasted a lot of land in prime locations in this country by not building upwards.

That's very expensive but I agree that we are wasting lots of land.

According to the 2022 Census, we have 163k vacant homes in this country. Spend the effort on getting 50% of those back into use and we'd be in a much better place. Spend the money on getting the councils to speed up turnaround.

It would take more than €70k to get a home that's been vacant for decades back into use. The issue of labour supply also comes into play as it's the same workforce building houses that refurbishes houses.
Small modular homes, which is what we are talking about here, are built in factories and assembled on site.

 

[thedaddyman]

Who's talking about building huts?
What this proposal does is allows people to continue to live in their communities.

That's very expensive but I agree that we are wasting lots of land.

It would take more than €70k to get a home that's been vacant for decades back into use. The issue of labour supply also comes into play as it's the same workforce building houses that refurbishes houses.
Small modular homes, which is what we are talking about here, are built in factories and assembled on site.

A lot of these homes have not been vacant for decades, 48000 of them were vacant for 6 years or less

In 2023 it was taking South Dublin County council 23 weeks to prepare and relet a council house for a new letting. In Cork City, that time was 58 weeks. Wexford was the best at 11 weeks, Longford the worst at 67 weeks. That means in Cork City, every time a council property is given up for reletting, it is not available for over a year, that is madness and a strong focus should be applied to that. I'm currently watching the Council do up a house it bought 6 months ago up the street from me, the builder is there one day a week at best and at this rate, it will be another 6 months before it is fit to let. We do need to get more builders in, that is an absolute requirement.

Modular factories exist already in Ireland, for example, one opened in Carlow last year for larger houses.

 

[Purple]

A lot of these homes have not been vacant for decades, 48000 of them were vacant for 6 years or less

In 2023 it was taking South Dublin County council 23 weeks to prepare and relet a council house for a new letting. In Cork City, that time was 58 weeks. Wexford was the best at 11 weeks, Longford the worst at 67 weeks. That means in Cork City, every time a council property is given up for reletting, it is not available for over a year, that is madness and a strong focus should be applied to that. I'm currently watching the Council do up a house it bought 6 months ago up the street from me, the builder is there one day a week at best and at this rate, it will be another 6 months before it is fit to let. We do need to get more builders in, that is an absolute requirement.

If you are saying that the State is rubbish at delivering services and State bodies are wasteful and that waste is at the root of everything from housing shortages to people dying in Emergency Rooms then I agree wholeheartedly. I don't think giving the same clowns more money and more to do is a good idea.

Anyway, we need more than one idea, more than one solution. There are houses all over Dublin, and every town and city in the country, with good side access and big long gardens. Take a look at the older suburbs in south Dublin and you'll see thousands of gardens that are well over 30 meters long.

One of our biggest problems is under occupancy. The reduction in the average household size (the average number of people per house) has consumed around half of the new homes we've built in the last 30 years. That's over €100 billion worth of building without housing any extra people.
Smaller homes are a good solution. They aren't the only solution but they are a useful part of the overall solution. They allow older people to stay in their communities while freeing up family homes or young people to have something close to independence. Think of them as a stand alone granny flat.

Modular factories exist already in Ireland, for example, one opened in Carlow last year for larger houses.

Yes, but our building regulations don't allow many of them to be sold here. Big Red Barn from Mayo are selling modular homes to the Americans. They can deliver a two bed home for €70k. Their compact one bed unit costs €20k.

 

[thedaddyman]

One of our biggest problems is under occupancy. The reduction in the average household size (the average number of people per house) has consumed around half of the new homes we've built in the last 30 years. That's over €100 billion worth of building without housing any extra people.
Smaller homes are a good solution. They aren't the only solution but they are a useful part of the overall solution. They allow older people to stay in their communities while freeing up family homes or young people to have something close to independence. Think of them as a stand alone granny flat.

It's quite common down the country in towns where the gardens are of that size. I can think of 2 cul de sacs in 2 towns for example, where houses have been built in the back-gardens. they tend to share enterances so it can be an issue when one of them comes up for sale but that should be the owners problem

There is no silver bullet here but lots of smaller things can help.