Problem with drains in small group of properties and no management company

[asdfg87]

There is an ongoing sewage problem in a small group of properties, these properties management company has been struck-off for some reason so there is no system for solving and there is also no insurance.
The sewage pipe flows under the floor of a property owned by a family member.
In the absence of a management company who is responsible for this pipe and clearing blockage, is this pipe effectively in the ownership of this person? can this person effectively take possession of this pipe in the absence of a structure? They want to avoid legal if at all possible as a more immediate resolution be better outcome.

 

[Redzer]

There is an ongoing sewage problem in a small group of properties, these properties management company has been struck-off for some reason so there is no system for solving and there is also no insurance.
The sewage pipe flows under the floor of a property owned by a family member.
In the absence of a management company who is responsible for this pipe and clearing blockage, is this pipe effectively in the ownership of this person? can this person effectively take possession of this pipe in the absence of a structure? They want to avoid legal if at all possible as a more immediate resolution be better outcome.

The Management Company were just providing a management service with the ultimate responsibility for drains/sewers on private property belonging to the private owners. Any blockages will need to be sorted by the owner of the location of the blockage.

 

[ClubMan]

The Management Company were just providing a management service

I think that you're confusing the management company with the management agent/agency?
The management company is ultimately reponsible for the management/maintenance of the relevant parts of a managed development.
The management compnay would normally be owned and operated by the property owners - or the developer if it hasn't been handed over to the property owners yet.

 

[asdfg87]

The Management Company were just providing a management service with the ultimate responsibility for drains/sewers on private property belonging to the private owners. Any blockages will need to be sorted by the owner of the location of the blockage.

Thanks Redzer,
In this instance the management company does not exist. The blockage is under the floor of the property i mention and the other parties have no interest in helping to resolve. I believe you are saying that in this instance because the pipe is under this property the owner of the property owns the pipe and therefore the problem if it blocks or is damaged. is this correct?

 

[Redzer]

I think that you're confusing the management company with the management agent/agency?
The management company is ultimately reponsible for the management/maintenance of the relevant parts of a managed development.
The management compnay would normally be owned and operated by the property owners - or the developer if it hasn't been handed over to the property owners yet.

Noting the above but in the absence of a management company and/or agency (or developer if not handed over) to sort it out then the property owner would be responsible for shared services on their property. A blockage might need a JetVac service similar to https://superdrain.ie/

 

[Ruffian]

@asdfg - It might be useful if you could give some more information about the nature of this development.
When you say "a group of properties" what do you mean - private houses, apartments, duplexes, mixed development, etc?

What age is the development?

Was there ever a functioning management company?

In some "historic" or older estates there may never have been one despite it being a condition of planning - the developer managed the estate initially and then went into liquidation or was struck off. This is not uncommon in so called "historic estates" of private houses. Ultimately the only solution in that scenario is to get the estate "taken in charge" by the local authority - but that is time consuming and will not address the immediate issue.

 

[asdfg87]

@asdfg - It might be useful if you could give some more information about the nature of this development.
When you say "a group of properties" what do you mean - private houses, apartments, duplexes, mixed development, etc?

What age is the development?

@asdfg - It might be useful if you could give some more information about the nature of this development.
When you say "a group of properties" what do you mean - private houses, apartments, duplexes, mixed development, etc?

What age is the development?

Was there ever a functioning management company?

In some "historic" or older estates there may never have been one despite it being a condition of planning - the developer managed the estate initially and then went into liquidation or was struck off. This is not uncommon in so called "historic estates" of private houses. Ultimately the only solution in that scenario is to get the estate "taken in charge" by the local authority - but that is time consuming and will not address the immediate issue.

The original development 40+ years 4 downstairs units commercial, 4 upstairs apartments with parking, i understand that the local authority will taker over if company not restored. What we are asking for advice on here is has the upstairs properties the right to have their waste water/sewage flow under a downstairs property in the absence of a management company to resolve any blockages? this has happened in the past and needs to be resolved, can the owner of the downstairs property refuse ans ask for this waste be redirected from under their property?

Was there ever a functioning management company?

In some "historic" or older estates there may never have been one despite it being a condition of planning - the developer managed the estate initially and then went into liquidation or was struck off. This is not uncommon in so called "historic estates" of private houses. Ultimately the only solution in that scenario is to get the estate "taken in charge" by the local authority - but that is time consuming and will not address the immediate issue.

I think that you're confusing the management company with the management agent/agency?
The management company is ultimately reponsible for the management/maintenance of the relevant parts of a managed development.
The management compnay would normally be owned and operated by the property owners - or the developer if it hasn't been handed over to the property owners yet.

Read the post again, i think your the one confused.

There is an ongoing sewage problem in a small group of properties, these properties management company has been struck-off for some reason so there is no system for solving and there is also no insurance.
The sewage pipe flows under the floor of a property owned by a family member.
In the absence of a management company who is responsible for this pipe and clearing blockage, is this pipe effectively in the ownership of this person? can this person effectively take possession of this pipe in the absence of a structure? They want to avoid legal if at all possible as a more immediate resolution be better outcome.

@asdfg - It might be useful if you could give some more information about the nature of this development.
When you say "a group of properties" what do you mean - private houses, apartments, duplexes, mixed development, etc?

What age is the development?

Was there ever a functioning management company?

In some "historic" or older estates there may never have been one despite it being a condition of planning - the developer managed the estate initially and then went into liquidation or was struck off. This is not uncommon in so called "historic estates" of private houses. Ultimately the only solution in that scenario is to get the estate "taken in charge" by the local authority - but that is time consuming and will not address the immediate issue.

h

 

[ClubMan]

Read the post again, i think your the one confused.

I think that you are the way that you are trying to quote stuff there!

Key Post - Replying to a post - quoting all of it; quoting a bit of it; quoting none of it

1) You can reply without quoting the post you are replying to This should be the one you use most often. 2) You can quote the entire post Please do not use this automatically Please do not use this to quote very long posts It's best to use this in a long thread where you are quoting a post...

www.askaboutmoney.com

 

[asdfg87]

Ruffian.
You asked about the development which is 40+ years 4 commercial downstairs 4 apartments upstairs. There was a management company but it was never properly structured regarding car park etc so a bit of a free for all. There is no management in place at the moment.
My question is what can the owner of the property mentioned do in relation to this waste/sewer to have permanent solution? in the absence of a manage company does this lady effectively own this pipe under the floor? The solicitor was useless, charged a nice fee and effectively did nothing.
Just to add there is a recorded management company in the companies office. There is also a title deed for the common areas.

 

[TomEdison]

It's likely that the owners' management company became moribund — over the years, none of the owners were sufficiently motivated to do anything with it — and was struck off for failing to make annual returns to the CRO.

A company that has been struck off can apply to be restored to the register so, if the owners want to revive it so that it can deal with the sewage problem, they can do that fairly easily.

However it's often the case in situations like these that some owners are more affected by the immediate problem than others are, so they may have no interest in getting the company restored to the register so that it can levy them for their share of whatever it will cost to sort out the drains. So, in practical terms, it may simply be that the owner(s) who are affected by the problem will have to deal with it.

 

[asdfg87]

Thanks Tom,
Your description is pretty accurate. The pipes for the building flows under the property i mention. In the absence of a management company does there not need to be an arrangement for this. Can a person reasonably expect to put their services under a property owned by another person.

 

[Leo]

Can a person reasonably expect to put their services under a property owned by another person.

Were they not put there when a single entity (the developer) owned the entire property? Do your deeds state anything regarding shared services when you bought? Do you own freehold or leasehold? It's common such details would be established when buying.

Shared infrastructure like you have is common enough, most of the 40's,-60's and perhaps beyond Corpo built estates in Dublin will have services under property that is now in private ownership.

 

[asdfg87]

Thanks Leo,

I understand what your saying. Toms earlier post was very accurate. The management of the drains is the management co which does not exist.
The blockage is in this under this property. In these circumstances how can the management co be restored so the problem belongs to the management company. Can the fact that the pipe is under the property be used as a way to have restored?

Private ownership, a friend of mine lives in one of these but they have a management company.

 

[TomEdison]

Can the fact that the pipe is under the property be used as a way to have restored?

You don't need an excuse to get the company restored to the register. The (former) directors of the company, or any shareholder in the company (and almost certainly each property owner in the building is a shareholder) can apply to have the company restored. They don't have to say why they want it restored, but they will have to bring company filings, etc, up to date — i.e. deal with the problems that got it struck off in the first place. If the strike-off happened more than 12 months ago then the application must be made to court, rather than to the Companies Registration Office.

But getting the company restored to the register isn't a magic solution to the problem. The company is just a convenient structure that enables the various owners in the building to co-operate to deal with matters of common interest (like the shared drain). Getting the company restored to the register makes it easier for them to co-operate to deal with the drain, but that's no use unless they actually want to co-operate to deal with the drain. So your family member's first course of action here is to talk to the other owners; get them to agree that there is a problem; and get them to agree that it needs to be addressed and that they should all co-operate in addressing it. When you've got that far, time enough to think about getting the company restored to the register as part of addressing the drainage problem.

Because it involves an application to court, plus whatever work is required to bring the company's accounting, filing, etc obligations up to date, there's a cost to getting the company restored to the register. It may be a modest compared with the cost of dealing with the drains, or it may not — that depends on what the problem with the drains is, and what has to be done to fix it. It may well be that the property owners will all agree to contribute, say, €500 euro each to getting a plumber to sort out the drain, if it can be done for that kind of money, and not worry about reinstating the management company. That's not an ideal solution — it just puts off the management company problem until there's a bigger issue that needs addressingl, like a new roof — but it may be all that the owners can agree to.

How is other stuff being addressed? Who is looking after the common areas — hallway, staircase, etc? Who is dealing with building insurance? These are all things the management company would normally address and I assume at least some of them are still happening.

 

[Leo]

Private ownership, a friend of mine lives in one of these but they have a management company.

I meant title, freehold or leasehold. To me this one sounds like a leasehold where the ownership of the land and services lies with the now defunct management company and the property owners only have a lease. All should have been made clear at time of purchase, but people often get lost in the excitement of getting their hands on keys that they don't take it all in.

If that is the case, follow @TomEdison's advice above to try get the company restored. Anyone looking to sell in the future is likely going to hit that issue as purchasers' solicitors and banks will look for details.

 

[lff12]

I'm not an expert on management companies but I am the Queen of Drains and the plumbers granddaughter and have unblocked and successfully cleaned many drains for friends and families after seeing my Dad do it for years with a problematic shared drain.
In private estates where there is a shared drainage system going through the properties the "owner" of the problem is the property under which the blockage exists. If you don't fix it, eventually it starts to come up through the basement of the property, regardless. If the problem isn't solved, the entire system backs up and nobody has drainage. Usually if multiple properties are impacted they don't all discover a problem together but one at a time as the system slowly backs up.
So there is a collective interest in fixing this problem and while lady in question might not care now, she will have to start caring once raw sewage starts to seep into her own property.
High pressure jetting isn't expensive and its common enough for people to call an unblocker only to discover that the problem is actually in a neighbours property - the company who clears this won't care who authorises the work as long as they get paid, though at least verbal agreement would be necessary if access if required.

There can be secondary issues where a property owner has knowingly built over any kind of inspection chamber, whether a manhole or rodding eye but ultimately the consequences for that property owner is that if the pipe is blocked just ahead of their property, the new structure will eventually be damaged by sewage blocked in the chamber. That's a separate issue though.

First thing is talk to all the impacted parties and agree to pay for a company to come sort it out. It would be highly foolhardy of the owner blocking this to prevent access to a sewage blockage that is likely to eventually seep into her own property if left untreated.
Secondly, get to know the system and how it works. A cleaning fixture for a pressure washer is not expensive, throwing a couple of buckets of soapy water into the system a few times a year costs nothing and a set of decent rods (buy ones with brass fittings, never buy the stainless steel ones which tend to break) is worth having to attempt a quick fix if stuck out of hours.

 

[lff12]

There is an ongoing sewage problem in a small group of properties, these properties management company has been struck-off for some reason so there is no system for solving and there is also no insurance.
The sewage pipe flows under the floor of a property owned by a family member.
In the absence of a management company who is responsible for this pipe and clearing blockage, is this pipe effectively in the ownership of this person? can this person effectively take possession of this pipe in the absence of a structure? They want to avoid legal if at all possible as a more immediate resolution be better outcome.

Suggestion here is that there is nothing to stop your family member from hiring a plumbing outfit to come inspect the problem, but she would have to pay them herself, and they would need permissions from other owners if access outside her property is required.