Prime Time: Trevor Sargent - Greener than green?

Thanks . I found it on the RTE homepage

Im hoping for a punch up in the next one
 
Firstly, there is a difference in SF and the IRA - just because Paisley came up with the phrase SF/IRA doesn't make it true, or maybe you think that Mary Lou has been running guns too?
The IRA have been involved in:
- protection
- bank raids
- arms sales - I doubt it - would they not normally be the purchasers??
- sale of terrorist training - that I don't know, it's a hard one to figure out probably helping out, but sales - i don't know - nor do any of us, nor does McDowell, he'd have leaked any info he had on that (national security of course).
- Drugs, I'd be shocked, seriously.

Now, you should also note that the IRA are no longer active, this has been confirmed by all and sundry, maybe not McDowell, but then it wouldn't suit his strategy of making SF unelectable (and thus ensuring that SF cannot be coalition partners for FF, seems to have failed), to state that the IRA have disbanded.

Let me add that I have never, and cannot see a time when I would ever vote SF, but that's not to say I don't respect Adams, I just don't think he or his party has the necessary skills or knowledge required to run a country - i know that hasn't stopped Bertie, actually on second thoughts, maybe I will vote SF
 
Glenbhoy said:
I thought Adams did not have a good understanding of the issues that are important to people in the south, and really SF would have been better served with O'Caolain representing them.
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You've clearly never heard O'Caolain speak.....
 
Sinn Fein is just the political wing of the IRA or was. And Gerry Adams will not deny that he was the leader of the Army Council of the IRA. Sorry, I'm wrong- I think he DID deny it? But in any case, I don't believe that denial.

Many people have the mistaken belief that the IRA were not involved in drug running because of the many reports that the IRA were so anti-drugs- carrying out attacks on drug pushers etc. But in fact I believe that they carried out attacks on those who were not part of the approved drug runs- they offered protection to certain pushers- 'former' IRA member/soldiers got into the racket themselves. I'm not the only one who believes this.

In any case if you only believe the IRA ( and not Sinn Fein) were involved in protection rackets and bank raids and the consequent money laundering, then where did the money go? To buy arms only? To mount their terrorist campaign only?

Enough reason for me to love to see McDowells impassioned stance against Adams/ IRA/ Sinn Fein.
 
Glenbhoy said:
Well, perhaps if you'd read my post you would have an idea as to what other sources of income he has, why did you feel the need to include the phrase "apart from the illegal possibilities", perhaps you'd like to give us some more detail?
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- Diesel smuggling
- Extortion
- Racketeering
- Protection
- Bank robbery
- Terrorist training
- Bootlegging

Given Adams' past the possibilities are surely limitless?
 
Glenbhoy said:
When he and every Sinn Fein representative mention that they take only the average industrial wage from their MLA/TD/MP/MEP salary, that is presumably a fact, that does not imo imply that they subsist on this money only - why would it??
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He didn't say that they take the AIW from their political salary. What he said was that they "draw" the AIW which would give the impression that their maximum income from ALL sources is the AIW which is not true. He tried to come across as the average Joe but McDowell pulled him up and made a show of him.

I'm no fan of McDowell but I was very surprised to see that Adams was no match for him.

Rabbitte just sat back and let them damage each other, occasionly jumping in with well rehersed put downs primarily directed at McDowell. I would have thought that his target should have been Adams as any swing vote that Labour get would be more likely to come from SF voters than PD voters.

Entertaining viewing none the less. Mark Little was very poor and I thought Mirium should have done this one as it was clearly going to be more difficult to control than tonights prospective borefest.
 
Squire said:
I'm no fan of McDowell but I was very surprised to see that Adams was no match for him.
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I wasn't. Adams ,Kelly, McGuiness, McLaughlin etc. are competent and well versed when it comes to the North but are clueless when it comes to economics for the South. Intellectual lightweights like McDonald ( incredible waffler ) , Ferris, Ó Snodaigh and Morgan can't hold their own either in any economics related debate imo. Still that won't matter to many potential Sinn Fein Voters - stick any candidate up as a Shinner and provided he/she can can drink ten pints on a Saturday night, bellow out " Follow me up to Carlow " at the end of the night, he/she will still get votes from certain elements of society .
 
I would love to see Enda Kenny wipe the floor with Bertie Ahern tonight. I find it so incredibly frustrating that so many people seem to think what Bertie has done is ok.I wouldn't mind if FF were reelected if:

1. Bertie was no longer leader.
2. They didn't do so in a coalition with Sinn Fein- I know this is unlikely for now at least.

But if Bertie is to remain leader then I'll be voting FG/Labour in the hope that Labour are sufficiently centred now not to increase taxes wildly.
 

Couldn't agree more. It is just that in all of the years watching Adams debating, last night was the first time I've seen him totally dominated. He is an expert at controlling those type of debates but McDowell had his card marked and was ready for him. It just goes to show (a) how badly prepared Adams was (b) how little he knows about the South. Either way not good from a SF prospective.

Interestingly, McDowell was playing into Labours hands by discrediting SF so it was a bit of a pointless exercise on his behalf. Maybe he is not as smart as he likes to think?
 
MMD's comment was class- we've got the left, further left and then pointing to Trevor Sargant, 'the left overs' !!
 
Does anyone know anyone in SF (who doesn't appear on TV) who wouldn't be considered "a bit of a scumbag" ?

I know a few. Not nice people.
 
At one stage Trevor made a throwaway remark about getting back to the issues and Adams almost gave himself a hernia with a squeal of the personally offended. He seemed to think Trevor was implying he was less Irish than the rest of them. Got a laugh out of that.

The rottweiler did well on the night. He was aggressive but the rest of them were concentrating their attacks on him.
 
Glenbhoy said:
- Drugs, I'd be shocked, seriously.
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You would be seriously shocked? have a pint with any inner city detective and you would get your answer as to whether the Sinners are up to any of this and I would be surprised if he/she would not back up everything Paul Reynolds has said openly and written in the last number of years.
prepare to be shocked.
 
I'd prefer to be positive and look where SF are going now. Because it has taken so long to achieve a working democratic assembly in the North its even more important to be positive and embrace them into the democratic fold. Every organisation of people has a few bad apples and our society has certainly produced them alongside the good ones in the church (child care scandals and cover ups) , politics (haughey & associates) , medicine (unnecessary hysterectomys) . The list sadly is very long.
The past was a very different place and as far as I can tell when McDowell was eating cream cakes in Dublin 4 , Catholics were excluded from equal access to free speech, housing and jobs et al.
As far as drugs go, a simple lithmus test is as follows:
The people and the communities who Adams represents who put him where he is today do not support drug dealing so why would he or the IRA support it ? The reality is he doesnt . It would completely throw away everything he has worked for all these years.

Exactly how many members of SF have ever been caught with Drugs ? I cant think of one. have there been any ? (Bear in mind I read the newspapers intermittently and go through phases when I learn something and other times when I dont which I freely admit so I may not be aware of any cases) . Plenty of politicians and their friends have . Brian Cowen the finance minister admits to having smoked spamspamspam and lets not talk about a well known friend of Haugheys and cocaine abuse in Florida. What about the drunk driving minister for health ? For all of these things Im not judging anyone but simply making a point.
I'd like to see some objective facts properly sourced and dispassionaterly presented.
If it can be proven then fair enough but wheres the proof ?

Victims need to forgive each other and move on however hard that is only they can know, I would have a serious problem with their economic policies because I think like all left wing parties they would give all the money away and leave us all with a hangover but to be honest Adams sounds very inclusive, forward looking and sane every time I hear him speak despite a constant slagging by opponents and journalists. It would be so easy for him to be as bitter and twisted as the rest of those who oppose the goood friday agreements implementation. As long as all involved stick to a war of 'words' things can only improve.
 
sign said:
Brian Cowen the finance misnister admits to having smoked spamspamspam ...
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I don't think you can compare Biffo having a few tokes on a spliff in the seventies (I respect him for having the honesty to admit it) with the drug dealer protection racket operated by the PIRA.
 
room305 said:
I don't think you can compare Biffo having a few tokes on a spliff in the seventies (I respect him for having the honesty to admit it) with the drug dealer protection racket operated by the PIRA.
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I didnt make a comparison and Im certainly not judging Biffo for this . I asked which members of Sinn fein have been caught with drugs ? and to be completely fair also which members of other parties ?
 
I don't believe it for one minute - if it were true, why, would sinn fein's core vote come from inner city area's?? Do you feel you've got a better handle on what goes on on the ground in these area's than the mothers and fathers there?
The same goes for NI, do you think that SF would have attracted approx 60% of the vote from the nationalist community if people thought for one minute that the IRA were involved in drugs? Or are their voters just stupid?
 
A previous poster mentioned reports by Paul Reynolds. If I'm not mistaken, Paul Reynolds is the RTE Crime Correspondent. Paul Williams is the Sunday World Crime Correspondent who has on a number of occasions listed, in some detail if I may say so, the activities of various gangs. He also describes links between 'straightforward' criminals and the IRA. Such links were highlighted by Paul Williams on Liveline and the radio interview can be heard on the Sunday World website.

Glenbhoy has put forward two positions: he does not believe allegations of crime on the part of Sinn Fein, and if the crimes occurred, why do Sinn Fein receive votes?

Glebhoy, Paul Williams is, I believe, an honest reporter. He has frequently stated he is not a member of a political party, and I understand from listening to him on the occassional radio show he has regularly argued with various Ministers for Justice. It may (or may not) be worthwhile scepticism not to believe everything Micahel McDowell says - but do you believe Paul Williams?
 
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