Pregnant girl looking for abortion money

MrMan said:

So change the law to suit yourself is it? You live in a country that has a law and complain when you have leave to get around it.

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Not to suit myself, no.
If you read my posts you would see that. I made the decision to NOT have an abortion as I didn't feel it was the right choice for me. I just feel that the choice should be available to women.
Personally, i wouldn't have an abortion I don't think though I hope I never have to make that decision again.
But I do feel that an all out ban on abortion is wrong. i think the choice should be there along with better sex ed (including teaching kids what being a parent is really like), better crisis pregnancy services, better support for women who have children (couselling, education etc) and better counselling for those who are considering abortion and those who are post abortion.
Prevention is better than cure in my opinion but I think a woman should at least have the option to make the decision.

Im not suggesting men should not have an opinion - I asked could they ever relate to the issue fully though? I still dont think that they can given that no man will ever find himself in the position of being left pregnant without a partner.

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But they canbe left in the position of wanting a baby that they have helped create and have to stand on the sidelines as the mother decides to abort/terminate their childs life. It's not an easy stand point on either side and granted more often than not some guys will be happy that the decision is taken out of their hands.

MrMan said:

So change the law to suit yourself is it? You live in a country that has a law and complain when you have leave to get around it.

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Its not nice for a woman to not only have to face the trauma of an abortion but to have to travel to do it, plus it costs money. If the law was changed in this country it would cause less pain and suffering for women who are already in an emotionally fragile state.

Just setting aside all morals for a second - what is the point in it being illegal in Ireland if a woman can go elsewhere to have it done?
Surely it would be more compassionate to just allow it in this country?

MrMan said:

But they canbe left in the position of wanting a baby that they have helped create and have to stand on the sidelines as the mother decides to abort/terminate their childs life. It's not an easy stand point on either side and granted more often than not some guys will be happy that the decision is taken out of their hands.

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I do agree with this but feel the numbers of guys who want to have the baby and raise it themselves is probably very small - practically speaking.

MrMan said:

So change the law to suit yourself is it? You live in a country that has a law and complain when you have leave to get around it.

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Two people had sex. One person is left holding the baby. Literally.

So what do you suggest is the solution for breaking the law MrMan? Further punishment for women who made the already very difficult decision to have an abortion? Imprisonment maybe?

MrMan said:

I would imagine that women from an older generation would say that the choices on offer for them were far starker than for the current generation and that they would be more than capable of understanding the needs of the current problems women today face. Would the younger women even get out and vote? should the many underage mothers also go out and vote and do you think that all young mothers actually regret the fact that they had their children?

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I don't know if they would vote but shouldn't they be given the chance.
The choices on offer for women years ago were starker. They were forced into "unmarried mothers" homes, laundries or marraiges. Their babies were taken from them and in some cases sold. They were second class citizens.
in 30 years time will our daughters be looking back on options available to us now and shaking their heads in disbelief.

MrMan said:

should the many underage mothers also go out and vote and do you think that all young mothers actually regret the fact that they had their children?

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Very harsh - I would be inclined to think that a lot of young mothers regret aspects of being in the position that they are in but have accepted their lot - as they have no other choice. I certainly know a number of people who say that they have regrets - but with no other choices available they do not dwell on those regrets.

Caveat said:

Ah come on MrMan - this is unlike you.

Are you saying if you don't like the law live somewhere else?

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Your making me feel bad, i guess I'm finding it difficult to find the right words to make my argument, I'm not one for telling people where to go or what to do, it justs bugs me sometimes when people feel that the law doesn't suit so lets get rid of that law just like the L plate scenario (this was going to be my original analogy but I deemed it insensitive because people might feel I was misunderstanding the plight of pregnant girls/women).

Just setting aside all morals for a second - what is the point in it being illegal in Ireland if a woman can go elsewhere to have it done?

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You can go to amsterdam for a smoke, go to different countries for differing age of consent, we can only make our own laws to suit this island.

But Mr Man, laws change. things change. There have been absurd laws made to suit particular groups of people. Contraceptives were illegal, women voting was illegal, black people sitting with white people was illegal, slavery was legal.....I could go on and on and on.

Also, most of these laws were made by men to suit men. I am asking when we are going to be allowed a say. If people feel strongly enough they will vote. Same applies for those who disagree with abortion. I just feel incensed that women my age and younger, who are the ones in need of abortion services are not allowed to have their say? And why? Because no politician wants to touch the subject!

PM1234 said:

Two people had sex. One person is left holding the baby. Literally.

So what do you suggest is the solution for breaking the law MrMan? Further punishment for women who made the already very difficult decision to have an abortion? Imprisonment maybe?

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I didn't mention breaking the law I just don't agree with changing it unless there is a majority of people in Ireland wanting it to be so and in that case majority wins. It is easy to paint anybody with a less liberal view of abortion as conservative or out dated. My views are always there to be changed but I haven't seen the argument yet to fully change mine right now. I think the video shown in my school of actual abortions taking place and the remains of whatever you want to call them (children/embryos) lying in what looked like buckets has coloured my view a tad. Religious propaganda or not it did leave an imprint.

MrMan do you honestly think there are many women in secure stable relationships and/or with financial and emotional support who choose the option of abortion as anything other than a last resort for them?
Do you really think many women see it as another form of contraception?
Do you honestly really think this decision is one that many women ever make lightly?


I was also shown the infamous abortion tape in school and even then thought it was a crass attempt to influence younger people.

truthseeker said:

Very harsh - I would be inclined to think that a lot of young mothers regret aspects of being in the position that they are in but have accepted their lot - as they have no other choice. I certainly know a number of people who say that they have regrets - but with no other choices available they do not dwell on those regrets.

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And alot of young mothers plan to have children rather than 'fall' pregnant. I wasn't having a go at ailbhe by the way, i have lots of regrets myself as I'm sure most do.

ailbhe said:

But Mr Man, laws change. things change. There have been absurd laws made to suit particular groups of people. Contraceptives were illegal, women voting was illegal, black people sitting with white people was illegal, slavery was legal.....I could go on and on and on.

Also, most of these laws were made by men to suit men. I am asking when we are going to be allowed a say. If people feel strongly enough they will vote. Same applies for those who disagree with abortion. I just feel incensed that women my age and younger, who are the ones in need of abortion services are not allowed to have their say? And why? Because no politician wants to touch the subject!

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Probably because there is no winner in the debate, but I would have no problem with another referendum.

PM1234 said:

MrMan do you honestly think there are many women in secure stable relationships who choose the option of abortion as anything other than a last resort?
Do you really think many women see it as another form of contraception?
Do you really think this decision is one that many women ever make lightly?

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I would say that yes some women/couples choose it because it interupts their plans for travel, career etc. I would hope that it is not seen by many as a form of contraception and that it wouldn't be taken lightly, but I would be naive to think that it isn't the case for at least some.

MrMan said:

... we can only make our own laws to suit this island.

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But are we that different from most other countries?
The vast majority of progressive modern states (and even more traditional or conservative states) seem to think that it is acceptable for abortion to be available in some shape or form.

What makes Ireland such a special case? - because as has been stated, in Europe, we are almost alone on this one.

I'm sure other countries have considered and deliberated over their decision and their position is not simply in response to 'market demand' to put it crudely.

MrMan said:

And alot of young mothers plan to have children rather than 'fall' pregnant. I wasn't having a go at ailbhe by the way, i have lots of regrets myself as I'm sure most do.

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Hence why as well as offering abortion i think that sex ed needs to be dramtically improved. And not just to focus on "don't have sex". The emotional side of things, the hardships of parenthood, the reality of what can happen, the consequences..... Sex ed in this country is diabolical and parents need to pick up the slack. I have a 6 year old daughter and I will be totally open with her about sex and contraception etc.
My mother never discussed sex with us. We weren't allowed to learn about contraception in school because it clashed with religion (well, we learned about natural methods)...
I had sex, the condom split. I wasn't stupid, I went to the college doctor and asked for the morning after pill and was told no, that she didn't perscribe it due to her beliefs! So armed with a list of doctors I went to another who told me I would be ok as I was on day 17 of my cycle and the window for conception had passed. i was dubious but could face no more embarrassment so i left it and hey presto, 9 months later I had a bouncing baby girl.

What sort of college doctor refuses to supply the morning after pill? Seriously?

Anyway, thats off the point really.
I would wish that nobosy would ever have to have an abortion. I wish that unplanned pregnancies never happened, that all pregnancies were planned and wanted. That would be an ideal scenario. But it is unlikely so I would prefer that women had the choice when they find themselves pregnant.

I am aware there are older women who have abortions and younger women who have planned pregnancies. But statistically speaking, younger women are more likely to find themselves pregnant and not have planned it. And their voices are not being heard.

Abortion illegal in all circumstances or permitted only to save a woman's life

South America:
Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Gustamala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nigaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Venezuela,
Sub-Saharan Africa:
Angola, Benin, Central African Rep.Chad, Congo, Côte d'Ivoire, Dem. Rep. of Congo, Gabon, Guinea- Bissau, Kenya, Lesotho, Madagascar, Mali, Mauretania, Mauritius, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Somalia, Tanzania, Togo, Uganda.
Middle East and North Africa:
Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Oman, Sudan (r), Syria, United Arab Emirates, Yemen.
Asia and Pacific:
Bangladesh, Indonesia, Laos, Myanmar, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Sri Lanka.
Europe:
Ireland, Malta.



What a great way to show ourselves to be a progressive country

Caveat said:

But are we that different from most other countries?
The vast majority of progressive modern states (and even more traditional or conservative states) seem to think that it is acceptable for abortion to be available in some shape or form.

What makes Ireland such a special case? - because as has been stated, in Europe, we are almost alone on this one.

I'm sure other countries have considered and deliberated over their decision and their position is not simply in response to 'market demand' to put it crudely.

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Well like I have already said I would be happy to partake in a vote on the issue and would give my vote serious thought but I wouldn't be surprised if the vote went against allowing abortion in Ireland. If that were the case then what? do those in favour of it think that we should still ditch our law to be in line with most other countries?

MrMan said:

Well like I have already said I would be happy to partake in a vote on the issue and would give my vote serious thought but I wouldn't be surprised if the vote went against allowing abortion in Ireland. If that were the case then what? do those in favour of it think that we should still ditch our law to be in line with most other countries?

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Personally yes I would still prefer to see it introduced but we live in a democracy.
A referendum would need to be held every few years though. If memory serves me (and I am open to correction) wasn't the last referendum very close? Is that why there is nobody willing to bring it to the table again?