Populist Vs Realist

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redbhoy

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Anyone hazard a guess to whats going on here?

Is McDowell forgetting about the rest of the murders and gun related crime besides the recent killing in Coolock?
It is like Bertie though, to make a big Hullaballu with no substance behind it.
If they really wanted to end gun crime and other issues they could easily.
Gun crime- Anyone caught with a gun 20 years!
Deaths on roads- Restrictors put on car engines to limit speeds to 80mph or so. Anyone caught tampering with the restrictors-time in prison. Anyone caught speeding- time in prison.

Its obvious to me that they dont really give a rats.
Does anyone else agree?
 
I think you have to bear in mind that, like it or not, their main job (from their point of view) is to get re-elected.

Who would elect someone who wants jail time for speeding? Where could you house all these prisoners? etc. etc.

Much of what you suggest would probably be politically viable (e.g. engine limiters) and could possibly be brought in.

I dont know if we should expect government to cure all ills though, they're not the ones shooting or the only ones speeding - personal responsibility seemed to have gone on the window in this country - dont blame the rioter, blame "society", blame the government .... yadda yadda
 
Speed limiters are not a viable solution to road deaths and pose further risks, if not they would be in use world wide.
 
Where would you draw the line redbhoy, that's a very big brother like society you are putting together where the government interferes with anything we could do that might break the law.
I have no time at all for Bertie, but if the courts aren't using the minimum sentences available to them for gun crimes then of course Bertie is going to get nervous that the public will misconstrue and blame the goverment for the amount of gun crime around these days.
 
Mary Harney was elected when she demanded during her campaign that all heroin addicts should be brought behind bars - does any one remember that b.t.w.?
The Dutch legal system is sometimes seen as weak or soft. But any judge that has to work on a criminal offence over there will put even the most minor criminal offender into jail once it is proved that the offender was armed during the criminal act.
A pickpocket who has been caught repeatedly will walk "free" for many times -well, on probation- but once they find an arm as small as a pen knife at him it's jail.There does not have to be proof/evidence that this arm was used during the crime (pickpockets are hardly ever realized/caught by their victims at the moment of the offence), just the availability of a weapon during a planned criminal act will be enough to consider this criminal as dangerous for the public.
This wise law makes even the professional criminals a bit more carefull when going to work....
 
We have managers. Some good, some bad.

We need leaders.
 
icantbelieve said:
Where would you draw the line redbhoy, that's a very big brother like society you are putting together where the government interferes with anything we could do that might break the law.
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If people are too thick to obey the law then they should be kept in line. (Maybe its a no-go because unfortunately human nature in some/most? seems to be corrupt. So if we had a proper police force and justice we'd no doubt have the few who would take advantage and ruin the system. Like some in the catholic church did.)

One of the numerous things i cant understand is the minimum 10 year jail sentence that is supposed to go to criminals who are caught with in excess of €10K of drugs. One of the men that was held over the murder in Coolock, who incidently was let go free due to Garda incompetence according to the front of todays Indo, lives close enough to me. He was caught a few years ago with millions worth of drugs. He didnt do his 10 years and now there is a girl dead with her blood on his hands.
 
I hate to see the rise of the right in Ireland and yet it is happening more and more every day. If black and white views such as some of those expressed here, on the radio and in the press become the accepted norm we will no longer live in a malibu-enjoying-life-easy-going country. Instead we will live in a highly regulated, highly controlled police state. I hope Ireland does not go down this path. Where is our sense of community gone?
 
Leo said:
Speed limiters are not a viable solution to road deaths and pose further risks, if not they would be in use world wide.
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What risk do you think a max speed limiter might pose?
RainyDay said:
Is there any evidence that tougher sentencing leads to reduced crime levels?
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Simplistic as it may be, surely the more time repeat offenders spend in prison the less time they have to be directly involved in assaults, murder, robbery etc.
 
shnaek said:
Iwe will no longer live in a malibu-enjoying-life-easy-going country.
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I assume you are having a laugh here, right? Long gone are the days of picture postcard Ireland and the land of a 1000 welcomes.
Face facts the more affluent we've become , the more decadent our society has become. We need someone to monitor the goings on in this country.
This problem is similar to the one in the North in my view. People down here all too willing to give an opinion when they dont have the full facts and they dont live through the day to day aspects of the problem.
Ah sure, we dont need all these laws, no-ones ever shot at me before so the country must be ok??
All things change when something happens on the person themselves. Lets see what happens when someone gets shot at a party out in D4 some night! The troops will be rallied then I bet!

I do agree with the sense of community being gone though. If someone reprimands a child these days thats not his own it can lead to a family feud whereas it was supposed to just be helping a neighbour out in rearing their child?
 
redbhoy said:
I assume you are having a laugh here, right? Long gone are the days of picture postcard Ireland and the land of a 1000 welcomes.
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Every step we move closer to a police state is another nail in that coffin

redbhoy said:
Face facts the more affluent we've become , the more decadent our society has become.
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Agreed. Our affluence has been very poorly managed. The state has been managed with the maximising of wealth in mind, instead of maximising quality of living.

redbhoy said:
We need someone to monitor the goings on in this country.
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Who? Fine Fail? Sin Fein? You? Me? Michael Mc Dowell? Labour? Your neighbours? What are they going to be monitoring?

redbhoy said:
This problem is similar to the one in the North in my view. People down here all too willing to give an opinion when they dont have the full facts and they dont live through the day to day aspects of the problem.
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Agreed once again. The only ones with the full facts are the Gardai and the Judges in the court. Now I am no bleeding heart liberal, but I have studied law and I do have respect for the principles of innocent until proven guilty. I also understand how demoralising it is for the gardai to be arresting people and then have those same people out on the streets shortly after. A balance must be achieved. But we must also consider the value of prison - and perhaps consider more imaginative means of dealing with criminals that actually achieve results.

redbhoy said:
Ah sure, we dont need all these laws, no-ones ever shot at me before so the country must be ok??
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No one ever arrested me and put me in jail even though I was innocent so this must never happen.

redbhoy said:
All things change when something happens on the person themselves. Lets see what happens when someone gets shot at a party out in D4 some night! The troops will be rallied then I bet!
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That is why we have an impartial judiciary. The law is not there to enforce the old testament view of eye for eye. It is there to enforce justice. Of course you or I would demand the severest punishment possible if you or I or the ones we loved were the victim of serious crime. But to allow you or I to determine the punishment would not be a just way of dealing with the crime.

redbhoy said:
I do agree with the sense of community being gone though. If someone reprimands a child these days thats not his own it can lead to a family feud whereas it was supposed to just be helping a neighbour out in rearing their child?
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The missing sense of community in my opinion is by far the most serious problem here. We look for quick fixes. But every day we stand by as estates are built with no community services. When did any of us last call into our neighbour to say hello? When did we last get involved in a community activity?

Laws must be just and be seen to be just in a civilised society.
 
Impartial judiciary. Impartial in what regard? Impartial towards the criminal or the victims?
Who puts these judges in place? I dont believe for one minute that they're in touch with the communities they affect with their poor judgements.
A solicitor gets up and lies through the teeth for these scumbags and ht ejudges take thi sinto consideration.
Solicitor- Oh he's such a nice fella, plays football, wants to go back to do some FÁS course to better himself, blah blah blah.
Judge- I think he deserves a 2nd chance. Seeing as though this is only his 28th offence.

The system is a farce. No wonder people take the law into their own hands sometimes!
 
michaelm said:
What risk do you think a max speed limiter might pose?
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Anything which takes any level of control away from the driver of a vehicle poses a risk. Leeds Uni carried out research that showed a deterioration in driving with such devices fitted in areas such as traffic light violations, tailgating, and speed while driving in fog. It also showed an increased accident rate.
 
I just don't buy it Leo. You might argue that ABS, EBD, Brake Assist, Traction Control, Power Steering etc. take a level of control away from the driver.
 
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, I wasn't involved in that study, if you don't agree, take it up with them. As for ABS, etc. these technologies are intended to assist the driver retain control, not take it away.

Anyway, regardless of this, how many fatalities are a result of accidents involving cars travelling at more than 70mph? Or what speed would you pick for such a limiter? I would imaging that dangerous driver behaviour or driving at inappropriate speeds for the conditions are more significant factors than simply breaking the speed limit.
 
Speed limiters are already compulsory for large goods vehicles (previously known as HGVs) and don't appear to have caused any significant increase in accidents. Of course some drivers will disconnect these but if caught face severe penalties. Its not possible to force everyone to comply with the law - if it were we'd have no problems!
 
I don't believe that the government actually cares about gun crime or roads deaths or anything else except for self interest and re-election. They do however want to project a perception that they care whenever RTE, the Irish Times and, to a lesser extent, the public take an interest.
 
michaelm said:
What risk do you think a max speed limiter might pose?Simplistic as it may be, surely the more time repeat offenders spend in prison the less time they have to be directly involved in assaults, murder, robbery etc.
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I'd like to see the data to support this conclusion.
 
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