Key Post Plumbing

Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances

One quick comment while you're waiting for Carpenter's reply....

...I don't think a hot water feed to dishwasher & washing machine is absolutely necessary. They have built in elements which heat the water as part of the cycle so a cold water feed should be sufficient.
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances

A washing machine can be run off a single cold feed only, but the machine will take longer to do a wash as it has to heat the water from cold, this is not an efficient use of energy, considering that a tankful of (at the very least) warm water is available which has already been heated using expensive fossil fuels.
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances

Some washing machines - zanussi for instance on certain models recommend using only the mains supply for efficency, so you should check the installation manual. One reason being that if the water is too hot the w/m needs to use cold water to cool it - so both energy and water are wasted.

Another problem with using water from the tank is there'll be extra noise from the cistern in the attic filling while the washing machine is working.
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances

Some of the new Bosch washing machines only take a cold feed. Only noticed this after putting in all the plumbing for the hot feed!!! The machine is still A energy rated.
Leo
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances



In answer to your first query, use two equal tees to provide three feeds from one pipe. To connect 1/2" qualpex (or any Irish sized plastic pipe) to 1/2" copper use a 1/2" compression coupling, using the plastic insert on the plastic pipe. While you can wrap a single wrap of PTFE around the olive before making the joint I wouldn't touch PTFE for this, that's just my personal preference but I'd use Boss White, just a small bit rubbed around the olive. By the way Boss White shouldn't be used on potable water, in this instance use a small bit of Boss Green. Actually, strictly speaking you don't need to use a jointing compound on compression joints at all, but I like to use a small bit, "just to be sure to be sure!". You can use Tectite fittings (make sure they're 1/2") if you are not confident using compression fittings. The Tectite fittings are used alot in commercial work and provided the pipes are clean and free from scratches etc they are perfectly acceptable. You must use inserts with Tectite fittings.You can connect your taps (presuming they come with 15mm copper tails) to the qualpex feeds using Tectite also ansd this is probably the easiest solution. While connecting your taps you should consider incorporating 1/2" isolating valves- this will allow you to service the tap without disconnection. The kitchen tap is the most used and abused plumbing fitting in the house and will require attention at some stage in it's life. I would prefer to use Tectite or brass compression fittings over the plastic Qualpex/ Polyplumb fittings- brass fittings are around a long time, are generally samller, more compact and look better IMHO.Next, while some of the other posts say that some washing machines do not come with a feed for hot water I would still make provision at this stage, it's normal practice and gives you maximum flexibility when choosing your appliances now and into the future (future proofing). Except that a dishwasher requires a single mains pressure cold feed only. You will need appliance valves for the washer and washing machine. The appliance valves will have compression couplings allowing you to fir them to the plastic pipes. If doing this be sure that plastic pipe is securely clipped to walls. Movement (particularly when moving appliances and their hoses) can cause joints to leak, so be careful. I think that's most of your queries answered. BTW when I first moved into our house 6/7 years ago we had awful problems with the plumbing and a plumber who just had no interest in his work. Having being messed around by guys like this for too long I decided 3 years ago to educate myself about plumbing. Through reading technical books and manuals, talking to qualified plumbers and advice from a local plumbers merchant I got over the initial fear that plumbing can instill (afterall a botched job can cause a lot of damage) and am now confident to tackle any plumbing job. In that time I've replumbed a kitchen and utility, put in a new ensuite, water softening system, retro fitted TRVs to all the rads etc. Plumbing is a very skilled trade and good plumbers are worth hiring, but basic, non-complex plumbing (such as you describe) is well within the scope of the average DIYer, providing you are neat, methodical and have the confidence and tools to do the job. Best of luck with it.
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances

Wow! I really appreciate all that info Carpenter. Reckon this should be made a key post.

I reckon I'm where you were 7 years ago: sick of being messed around by plumbers, generally competent in many other areas of construction and so I want to educate myself about how to do basic plumbing as I don't want to have to call in plumbers for small jobs.

I'll search for some tutorials on the web and get a couple of books for some light bedtime reading but in the short term I need to get these appliances up and running so here's what I think I need, if you could let me know if I'm on the right lines it'd be a great help:

To break off a hot feed for the washing machine from the existing hot pipe:

-2 qualpex plastic inserts
-1 qualpex appliance valve (my understanding is the pipe supplied with appliance will screw into this?)

For the taps:

-2 isolating valves (one for each tap) like this: [broken link removed]
-2 ½ inch compression fittings (I checked and these are fine to use with qualpex as long as the qualpex inserts are placed into the pipes

Tools needed:

-pipe cutter
-pipe vice
-qualpex pipe cutter
-qualpex lubricant
-Boss White/Green
-2 adjustable spanners
-wire wool & half round file (for cleaning spurs off pipe ends)

I’ve just had a look on the web and I reckon I can handle the compression joints and it’ll be good to get experience with them. A mate said that Tectite joints are too easy so he didn’t trust that they could be as good as a compression joint - what's your view on this?

The one thing I’m not clear on is how to join the isolation valves to the qualpex: do I need a compression fitting on each side or can the isolation valve just be connected straight to the pipe?

Plumber has left the cold feed for sink with a similar fitting to the ones for the appliances to screw into. (i.e. female fitting with switch handle). Will I just take this off and use a qualpex joint to join it to the new bit of qualpex that will be connected to the cold tap?
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances

I'll respond to this in detail this evening. If you did want to buy an inexpensive book to introduce you to the fabulous world of plumbing I can personally recommend "Collins Plumbing and Central Heating". It costs about €20, it's readily available and it's an excellent general guide to domestic plumbing and drainage and would prove a valuable reference book to any homeowner. If nothing else you can "talk the talk" with plumbing suppliers/ plumbers.
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances



Why bother with Qualpex appliance valves (washing machine/ dishwasher), I prefer the brass (or chromed brass) ones. These come with compression cap nut and olive for fitting on any kind of 1/2" pipe (no other fittings reguired), just use the inserts with plastic pipe. A lot of these valves come from the continent and are marked 15mm, get some 1/2" olives and you can use them with our good old Irish 1/2". I'd only use Tectite in a situation where access is poor and you wouldn't be able to manipulate a spanner and compression fittings are ruled out. The big worry with Tectite is where the fittings could be prone to movement- will the pipe pull out. Use the compression fittings if you feel confident enough to use them (they're easy enough- just don't over tighten). Why not tackle one appliance and see how you get on? Don't bother buying a Qualpex cutter and a pipe cutter. Just buy a rotary wheel pipe cutter or if you like gadgets buy a Kopex/ Monument pipe slice- cuts neatly and is great in confined spaces. You shouldn't need the lubricant- the joints come pre lubricated and shouldn't need any further attention unless you are breaking and re-making an old joint. Good luck.
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances

Hey Carpenter,

Thanks again for the advice.

So here’s a report on how I got on with my first plumbing project:


So I went ahead and plumbed it all in using compression fittings. No problem connecting up for the appliances, but the plumbing for the sink was a much bigger job.

One problem I do have though is: I drained the system (turned off rising mains and let all taps run till system empty) before doing the work, but ever since I turned it back on I can’t get any cold water from the taps upstairs which are fed from the cold storage tank. Shower works fine (separate feed from cold water tank). Taps downstairs work fine but they are off the mains. Any ideas?

Due to the layout of the pipes I had to use two elbows on the feed for each pipe. Add in the service valves and the actual connection the tap ends and there was 8 joints to be made for the taps. The hardest part was actually working in the confined space below the sink. The fact I only had two spanners, both 12inches long, that fit the 24mm nuts on the compression joints didn’t help. Is it easy to find shorter spanners that will go up to 24mm?

The tap ends didn’t seem to fit the standard 1/2inch compression fittings I had so I had to go back to B&Q to get suitable fittings.

I tried not to overtighten but when I turned the water on I got plenty of leaks so I pretty much had to tighten them further. Actually they’re now pretty much as tight as I could make them but there does not seem to be any more leaks (checked this morning and there may be a tiny leak in one place but have to double-check).

I found elbow joints to be the hardest as you can’t use the two spanners in the opposite direction at one time. I ended up taking out the elbows and tightening them in my hand with one spanner and then putting them back in.

The waste was relatively straightforward, though I did have a job finding a suitable 90 degree bend and then I had to get an adaptor and solvent to bind the PVC pipe to the ABS waste the plumber had installed.

All in all, a kitchen sink is probably not the best starting place for the DIY plumber but I’m glad I’ve done it and it seems ok so far, and the appliances were very easy so thanks for the advice.

I bought one of these [broken link removed] but it wouldn’t cut qualpex so I got a qualpex cutter and it was a joy to use.

I’m getting the Collins DIY Manual (includes the plumbing book and more) and a B&Q DIY Manual which seemed to get good reviews - as I’ve no doubt I’ll get good use of both .

Thanks again.
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances

Hi OhPinchy

Sounds good so far. As for the lack of water in the taps upstairs what you have there is an airlock. Try connecting a hose from the main kitchen tap to one of the affected taps (presuming your kitchen tap is a monobloc- one spout) Open up the kitchen tap and the mains presuure should blow the air out of the pipework (so I'm told). You'll probably need an assistant for this operation!. As for the kitchen tap connections, you've come across the 1/2" versus 15mm problem. Most taps come with copper tails which are 15mm in diameter, whereas Irish compression fittings are 1/2" and the matching olives are 1/2"(which is 14.7mm). A small difference in diameter which can really throw you off! The way around this is to use a metric 15mm olive with the fitting. Sometimes a 1/2" branded fittings may suit 15mm pipe, sometimes not. I have one of those mini pipe cutters myself- they're a great job alright- I presume you didn't buy it online?
If you go to a plumbers merchant you should be able to buy smaller plumbers wrenches suitable for use on 1/2" and 3/4" fittings- they might be branded "Irish instantor" or "1/2" Irish"- expect to pay about €12. When tightening elbows it is sometimes convenient to grip the body of the fitting (which has "flats" for this purpose) with a plumbers grips (an adjustable pliers) whilst tightening the cap nuts.

As for the kitchen waste, if you are having problems manipulating a pipe or getting the pipe to work you can bend the white PVC pipe by gently warming it using a blowtorch ( a hot air gun is better)- just be careful not to scorch it. This can help if pipework is off centre etc.

If you want to check fittings for minor leaks you can use the edge of a piece of tissue which will show up the smallert weep- but hopefully you won't have this problem!

What's your next project?
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances

The taps in the upstairs bathroom are both mixers – should I literally try and force water from the hose into the bit where the water comes out of the mixer?

Next project is sorting out a leak in the toilet in the main bathroom and also a leak in the sink in the bathroom. Am just now realising what a cowboy the plumber was and let’s just say it’ll be interesting when he comes to our intermediary looking for money – the main thing he was slagging the other plumber I got in about was his use of tektite fittings (even though I pointed out there was mitigating circumstances here as they had left him very little pipe to work with in a very confined space). And now that I’m in the know enough to identify it – I can see the main plumber then went on to use tektite fittings for the cold feeds for the appliances!

The flange that connects the 4 inch waste to the back of the toilet seems to be leaking. Will have a closer look later but not sure how to solve that one – suppose silicone is out of the question?

The sink in the bathroom has a chrome bottle trap and the waste from the chrome pipe running out of this to the wall is joined to the 1 ¼ inch pipe in the wall using no connectors (i.e. its literally just sitting inside it) so its leaking, we’re talking major gunther work here! I think the chrome pipe is too short either way so I’ll have to get more.

My next plumbing project will then be the plumbing for the heating in the extension and the plumbing for the kitchen in the extension (I’ll get the second plumber to advise but will hope to do at least most of it myself).

In between I’ll have my usual agenda of extensive renovating: on tonight’s menu is – grout and silicone bathroom tiling, hang a blind in living room so we can have a bit of privacy, and hang the doors for units in utility room. And tomorrow maybe a bit of architraving followed by some light skirting boarding Oh, and finding a T junction to combine two 4 inch air ducts (have no back draft valves) will be a challenge aswell!

My next learning project though will be electrics: I’m gonna read up on it and wire up my underfloor heating and things like connecting the shaving socket (wires there already). Again, I know a sparks so I’ll get him to advise and look over it.

Thanks for the advice again Carpenter, and if you’re ever buying a PC or want to get something like Windows Media Center installed (believe me, its AMAZING) just give me a shout and I can pay back a bit of the advice!
 
Re: Plumbing for kitchen appliances

OhPinchy,
I'm tired just reading what work lies ahead of you, fair play to ya! The flange you are referring to is white I take it? If so it's a WC pan connector. There is a rubber seal inside where it connects to the spigot outlet of the toilet. The seal was probably deformed whenn it was fitted, leading to the leak you mention. The only satisfactory way to solve this is to disconnect the pan and refit. If you decide to do this you'll have to disconnect the feed to the cistern and remove it. Before refitting the pan connector you should take out the seal, clean it and give it a rub of silicone lubricant (such as used with Wavin pipes or if stuck a spray of Son of a Gun will do the job). This will aid refitting and should prevent the seal from deforming. As for the leaking WHB waste there should be a rubber seal of some kind I would imagine. Sounds like your ontop of things and you never know I may take you up on the PC advice!
 
Re: Key Post;Plumbing

Building an extension onto the side of our house and am doing most of the work myself. Ready to pour the concrete slab soon enough. The wall will eventually be knocked where our dining room currently is to create kitchen diner single room in the extension. Plumber left copper pipe feeds for the extension ready in the dining room floor ready to be extended into the extension. Plumber did the internal replumb on existing house but was a cowboy so not having him back for the extension.

I need to run the pipes in for the extension (they will be run in the ground) before I pour the concrete slab over them. I will just be running the pipes and getting a plumber later to connect it up to the pipes in dining room when the wall is broken through. Considering the pipes will end up embedded in concrete with a solid wood floor over it, can I get away with using Qualpex pipes or do I really need to continue it in copper?

Also, my mate was digging the foundations in a mini digger and hit off the gas pipe feeding from the gas box into the ceiling of the sitting room. This pipe is running up the side wall of the (end of terrace) house (gas box is on the front wall) and then in through the sitting room joists. The external wall it is currently running up will be an internal wall on the extension so it will be slabbed over. The pipe is badly dented but we checked immediately and theres no leaks. I think this piece needs to be replaced though I’m interested in opinions as to whether the whole gas pipe should be moved and where to (I can only think front wall which would destroy appearance).

Thanks.
 
Re: Key Post;Plumbing

Flow and return pipes for radiators can be run in qualpex barrier pipe where they will be buried in concrete, but the tails for the rads (at control valve and lockshield valve) should be in copper for appearance sake, connecting to the Qualpex with a compression elbox fitting.

As for the gas line I would replace the lot with one new continuous length of copper pipe (no joints) particularly if this will be covered up. If you use joints the pipe and any joints must be accessible in case of any future leaks. Bord Gais website has advice in their online Technical Manual.
 
Re: Key Post;Plumbing

Thanks Carpenter - whats the difference between Qualpex barrier pipe and the 'normal' Qualpex (i.e. used everywhere else in the house) I had in mind, or is there any?

Which ever pipe I use I plan on putting some foam lagging around it. Is a compression fitting the best thing to join the qualpex to the copper in the dining room or is there some type of joint that might give a better joint for this situation that I'm not aware of?

I'll break the pipes out of the wall for the rad valves and will use copper pipe for this.

Nice one.
 
Re: Key Post;Plumbing

Qualpex barrier pipe has an extra core which resists the diffusion of oxygen into the pipe from the atmosphere. Basically a non barrier pipe would allow air to diffuse into the pipe and into your system over time resulting in air locks in radiators etc. Qualpex is somewhat porous at a microscopic level and the addition of the barrier layer prevents the absorption of oxygen which would otherwise enter the system. It is only required to use a barrier pipe on a primary/ central heating circuit as the absorption of minute quantities of air on the other (hot and cold feeds to appliances) circuits would not be problematic. Strictly speaking it's not absolutely necessary to lag qaulpex pipes although it's a good idea if such pipes are buried in concrete. As for jointing I prefer compression fittings (be sure to use the black qualpex insert with the plastic pipe end) although you could use one of the Qualplumb plastic fittings. Personally I wouldn't use a Tectite fitting where it will be buried in concrete. Check out http://www.qpl.ie (www.qpl.ie) (Quality Plastics Ltd) for detailed instructions on pipe selection and jointing. Be sure to allow a minimum of 50mm screed cover over any pipes/ joints etc.
 
Re: Key Post: Plumbing

I had a plumber come to my house before Christmas to fix the cold tap upstairs as it was not working. He fixed it. Charged me €50 Euro in cash and off he went. The tap is not working again. I called him and he has not returned my three calls. I don't want to get a new plumber in, I want him to come back and fix the tap. Where do I stand?
 
Re: Key Post: Plumbing



With a cash in hand job, you have little or no come back. Did you get a receipt or any other paper work?
 
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