Planning Dept ask for Tax Returns to prove Im a farmer; Info goes into public domain

I'm going through the process of trying to get planning permission for a house. Have been refused before but applied again and am now at the 'seeking additional information' stage, which usually is a more positive sign of progress.

However, the last request of the planning department was to see copies of my tax returns for the last 3 years to ascertain that I'm actually involved in agriculture.

My biggest problem with this is that everything I submit to the council also goes straight into the public domain. I have to make 6 copies of everything that I submit and one of the copies is kept for public viewing. Now, I'm not too keen on having Joe Bloggs down the road knowing the exact inner workings of my income and tax returns, so do you think I have a right to reply to the planner that I think this is an inappropriate request?

Of course I'd have to say it nicely not to get their backs up, but am I correct in thinking that tax affairs etc are strictly private and personal between you and the revenue commissioners and your employer and that nobody else should be asking about it? I'm thinking about submitting details of all my expenditure, which proves that I contribute a lot financially to the area, but I just don't want anyone else knowing where my income comes from or how much it is.

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

I'd say you have a good point there. I think they are trying to ascertain your agricultural bona-fides, but given the confidential nature of the returns I reckon you have good grounds to object. You will still need to convince them, but you should be able to get them to waive that particular requirement.

You should ring the planning department and ask to speak to the executive planner for your area and make your case verbally first of all - an appeal to common sense *may* work, especially if you come prepared with an alternative way of establishing your bona-fides. It's hard to think what would be satisfactory without giving away financial information but there must be something you can come up with.

z

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

I'm afraid common sense doesn't really come into the argument with planners. For example, instead of using the entrance to my site which they gave me planning permission for 3 years ago and which has been in use since then, they want me to use my family home's entrance 250m down the road instead because it's in the regulations that you must use the family home's existing entrance. I'm so frustrated by the lack of common sense!! You have to really walk on eggshells around planners and to be honest I don't find talking to them face to face helps one bit.

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

If it's in the regulations then why are you surprised they are looking for it ?

If you don't contact them and don't provide the further info they are looking for then they won't be able to grant your permission.

It looks like you have 3 choices - submit the returns (not a good option with confidential information), don't submit them and don't contact them (and be guaranteed not to get your permission) or contact them and try to work out an alternative which is what I suggested.

Planning processes work to statutory timescales - if you leave it to the last day and then object to providing the information you will most likely find that your application is refused because the further information requested was not provided in sufficient time for the planner to make their recommendation.

z

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

Yes, things may be in the regulations, but in lots of other cases around, I see regulations being flouted all the time by the planners, just because the applicants seem to be 'in the know'. E.g. the planners give me a hard time about using my own entrance because of regulations but are quite willing to let someone else just bust through a hedge without any problem. There's a complete unfairness in the system and when you broach this with the planners, they just say 'this has nothing to do with your case'. Another example...I've grown up in this rural area...have worked here and contributed to the community my whole life...yet they're giving me a lot of problems in trying to get this permission...however there are a number examples on my road of so-called 'blow-ins' that have built pretty large mansions and it turns out that these people are pretty wealthy or are pretty well known local 'developers'. Do I sound bitter? Probably. As a result of all this, I now no longer know half the people living on my road whereas I would have known all the families growing up.

The planners seem to give the locals a harder time and in turn tear up local communities IMHO. So, they're not exactly my favourite people because I see the complete unfairness of the system everyday! Sometimes, I really wish that some newspapers would do stories and ask more questions about certain county councils and their planning departments. I have lost all faith in the planning process and must admit I am thoroughly convinced that some planning departments are indeed still corrupt. Therefore, I am even more reluctant in having to submit all these extra personal details, particularly when I look at the previous applications of neighbouring houses, who never got asked so much detail.

It is such a frustrating process, it's hard not to get angry just talking about it!

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

Patricklm, I wonder if you live where I live? I am not going to say where it is because I would only get myself into a lot of bother. I totally agree with what you say. I see what goes on around us here and I am convinced there is no law as regards planning, they make it up as they go along depending on who you are. I could write a book on the goings on.

I once went to the planning office to look at a file and to see who signed the cheque for the application ( I knew what I was looking for ) and guess what it was missing from the file. I asked for it but was told it was only a cheque and so what.

Obviously the application went in someone elses name! if you know what I mean. I can not say any more as I would get in trouble so no names mentioned or County Councils either.

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

I share all of your negative views about planning authorities, and not just the rural ones. If the documentation is required simply to establish/ascertain that you're genuinely involved in agriculture, then there's no reason for your tax details to enter the planning file and thereby be made public in the same way as, say, site plans or building details. There's no 'planning issue' involved. I'd even suspect that to 'publish' details of your income and tax returns in this way might be a breach of the Data Protection Act or more generally of your right to privacy.

Why not write and put this to them — tactfully/constructively, of course! Say that you're happy to provide this information to support your application/inform their decision, but that you don't want it made public...

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

Swallows said:

I once went to the planning office to look at a file and to see who signed the cheque for the application ( I knew what I was looking for ) and guess what it was missing from the file. I asked for it but was told it was only a cheque and so what.

Click to expand...

But the cheque would go to the bank once lodged - they couldn't keep this one file.

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

Yes RainyDay, but there has to be a copy of it left in the file otherwise the application is not complete without a record of payment?

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

Swallows said:

Yes RainyDay, but there has to be a copy of it left in the file otherwise the application is not complete without a record of payment?

Click to expand...

The reciept for the payment would be the record of payment, not a cheque, what if someone paid cash?

The application wouldn't have been accepted without payment, besides the name of the applicant is on the application form. and that is all that is relevant to the application.

Getting back to the original point of the thread. the reason the planners are looking for the tax certs to prove that you earn a proportion of your income from agriculutre, to allow them to give you planning in accordance with thre relevant development plan. A certificate from an independant account should suffice to say "Mr PatrickLm earns x% of his income from agriculture for the past 3 years". This wouldn't divulge anything significant to the public file. i agree with zag, talk to the planning department, i'm sure you're not the first person they asked this of, and they must have worked out a method of doing this before.

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

I was horrified to find out that DunLaoghaire Rathdown County Council have access to some details of my social welfare files!

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

In regard to proving that you are involved in farming.

Ring the Revenue and ask them can they give you a letter stating that you are tax complient and that as far as they are concerned you are a farmer.

Provide a copy of your membership form from the IFA,

Also, request a meeting with the plkanning officer, and explain your gripe.

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

Any of the following should demonstrate farmer status
- herd no. from Dept of Ag
- livestock purchase or sales dockets from mart
- active account statements from co-op or other supplier showing purchase of farm inputs.

Re: Planning Dept ask for Tax Returns to prove Im a farmer; Info goes into public dom

Ive split the remainder of this thread which has wandered off topic.

This topic is about what information planning authorities are entitled to seek bearing in mind that the information ends up in the public domain.

aj

Re: Planning Dept ask for Tax Returns to prove Im a farmer; Info goes into public dom

They can ask for anything they want because refusal to supply means no planning . There is a letter from my GAA club and my kids school Headteacher on the file for my gaff .