Peter Sutherland And Teachers

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Sunny

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Anyone reading his comments yesterday about how bad teachers are effectively protected for life whatever the level of performance. I loved the trade union response which pointed out that there was a system in place whereby teachers who were experiencing professional difficulties could make a dignified exit. Over the past decade, more than 1,000 teachers have taken early retirement under this scheme. So basically after years and years of sub-standard peformance they can take early retirement on full pensions. Thats really showing them!

I think teaching is a very difficult profession and like Peter Sutherland I think they should be well paid to attract the right people and unlike alot of people I don't begrudge them long holidays but I also expect them to be professionally capable and not like some the teachers I experienced in school.
 
A prerequisite for being a teacher should be liking or at least tolerating kids - a lot of teachers plainly hate them.
 

Totally agree
 
Sunny said:
So basically after years and years of sub-standard peformance they can take early retirement on full pensions. Thats really showing them!
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Are you saying that they should forfeit the pensions to which they have contributed during their years of service to date? I don't think you would see this happening in any private sector case.
 
ubiquitous said:
Are you saying that they should forfeit the pensions to which they have contributed during their years of service to date? I don't think you would see this happening in any private sector case.
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No but most private sector workers wouldn't be allowed build up massive defined benefit pensions throughout years of poor performance so they can depart with their dignity intact . And this isn't a public/private sector debate because that has been done elsewhere.
My point is that Sutherland is right to point out that unions and governments have protected under-performing teachers to the detriment of students and other teachers for decades. We wouldn't let sub-standard doctors treat our children so why do we let sub-standard teachers teach them.
 
If all teachers were doing their jobs right there would be little need for Grind Schools & Christmas & Easter Revision courses etc, unfortunately I cannot see unions ever agreeing to teachers being rated. A lot of it boils down to having a good principle who expects high standards from his teachers.
 

In fairness to teachers, you can't compare students to patients. Students are a mixed bag, some are eager to learn, some are anti social, and some even violent. Teachers have to deal with a growing number of issues and cannot simply turn up and teach. there are plenty of duds, but I think teachers take more flak than they are due.
 

But thats the point. I am not giving teachers flak. I am giving the sytem flak. I have already pointed out that I think it is a very difficult profession and not everyone is suited for it. The problem remains that those people who are found to be not suited for it are allowed to continue in their role to the detriment of students and probably their own health. That is why I think teaching should be a highly paid profession for the people who are able to do the job and those who aren't should be moved on.

I was an average student in a difficult all boys school. Did seven exams for the leaving cert. I had three excellent teachers who controlled every class so every pupil had the chance to learn and four teachers that had no interest in being there and so pupils did what they wanted. Guess what subjects I did much better in.
 
I think there are cases where a teacher is just not up to the job. My honours maths teacher for the leaving cert did not actually understand the course material, he was a terribly nice guy but he couldnt possibly impart the relevant knowledge as he himself didnt understand it. As a class we complained, the school then removed him as our teacher and didnt give us a replacement for 6 weeks. so we spent 6 weeks before the leaving cert with no honours maths teacher at all. After the 6 weeks (parents complaining etc..) they re-assigned the original guy saying there was no one else available and now we were faced with a teacher who didnt understand the material but who also hated us for causing him problems so the class became a forum for silly random punishments and detentions. There were 14 students in the class, only 2 of us did not go to grinds in the subject (lack of money). Out of the 14 people the highest grade received was a C (i think 3 people managed a C) the whole rest of the class got D's - how much different would this have been if we had had a better teacher? This was a class of people who WANTED to learn.

I bumped into the teacher some years later, he told me he had highly resented our class for insinuating that he didnt understand the material and he was GLAD no one had achieved higher than a C.
 
truthseeker said:
he told me he had highly resented our class for insinuating that he didnt understand the material and he was GLAD no one had achieved higher than a C.
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...speaks more of his unsuitability as a teacher than his apparent comprehension difficulties really.
 
bamboozle said:
If all teachers were doing their jobs right there would be little need for Grind Schools & Christmas & Easter Revision courses etc
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I disagree - the nature of people is that they feel that by paying for something, that something is inherently 'better' than the free alternative. Even if their kids go to a private, fee-paying school, some people will always pay through the nose for extra tuition etc. to give their kids what they see as an extra advantage.
 
Caveat said:
...speaks more of his unsuitability as a teacher than his apparent comprehension difficulties really.
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absolutely. it was a petty attitude years after the event - but had he been capable of answering our questions in the first place we wouldnt have arrived at that position (I could understand that it was difficult for him that a whole class complained but we felt entitled to be taught properly).

I did have one wonderful teacher, he was strict, firm, fair and smart - he shaped my future career because he was an inspirational teacher - but unfortunately there are not many of those around.
 
bamboozle said:
If all teachers were doing their jobs right there would be little need for Grind Schools & Christmas & Easter Revision courses etc
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Sorry but completely disagree with this - grinds are just a result of the pressure on kids these days - as Sherman said there is this notion that if you're paying for grinds you're getting a better education - aboslute nonsense I'd say. In fact I'm pretty sure the stats back this up too.
 
Sunny said:
No but most private sector workers wouldn't be allowed build up massive defined benefit pensions throughout years of poor performance so they can depart with their dignity intact .
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Indeed, but are you seriously suggesting that teachers who are deemed to have performed poorly should lose their pension entitlements, as well as their jobs?
 

I agree to a certain extent but I had to do grinds in two subjects because my teachers were incapable of controling and teaching a class. My parents went into the school about it and the headmaster told them that there was nothing he could do and that we weren't the only ones to complain and so he recommended a tutor for me.
 
ubiquitous said:
Indeed, but are you seriously suggesting that teachers who are deemed to have performed poorly should lose their pension entitlements, as well as their jobs?
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Where did I say that people should lose their pension entitlements that they built up?? I am pointing out that they shouldn't be in the job building up the pension entitlements if they are not up to it
 
ubiquitous said:
Indeed, but are you seriously suggesting that teachers who are deemed to have performed poorly should lose their pension entitlements, as well as their jobs?
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I think the issue is not that they lose their pension but in certain cases and in all employment areas not just teachers people are given special incentives to retire early. i.e. they get their accrued pension without it being reduced for early payment or other such benefits.

This is an increase to their accurred benefits and I think the original poster may have been saying that this is a reward and should not happen - which I agree with.
 
ajapale said:
How does one go about measuring the effectiveness of Teachers?
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This is a long hard road. let's start from the position taken by some members of teachers' unions. Namely that teachers should not be measured at all. Perhaps I could ask that someone else take up this side of the debate, as I would find it hard to defend the position effectively.

The question pertains to measurement which in my view is one of the last things that would be put in place. Let us first try to define what, we the taxpayers and parents, would like to see in our teachers. Once that's defined we can look at the applicability of measurements and all that go with them.

So what traits are we talking about? This is open for debate but let's start with the sort of things that are not specific to teaching. Some may be easily measured and some may, because of the unique nature of the profession, be un-measurable. But let's not allow this to distract form the task of identifying what is important enough to consider.
  • Attendance
  • Knowledge
  • Ability to teach
  • Engagement / interest
Would anyone else care to contribute to the "teacher profile" ... and hey we can do accountants tomorrow if you want.


QP
 
Sunny said:
Where did I say that people should lose their pension entitlements that they built up?? I am pointing out that they shouldn't be in the job building up the pension entitlements if they are not up to it
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Fair enough. I see where you're coming from now. Thanks for clarifying that.
 
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