I appreciate this seems clear to you Sarenco but I don't think the point Ilgon and I are trying to make is coming across clearly. I'll have a think about this and do another post in a few days – it's obviously an important issue.Again, this really is not a complicated issue.
Pensions are by far and away the most tax-efficient way to save for retirement - right up to the standard fund threshold.
As far as I know, yes. If you belong to a DB scheme only, the only lump sum you get is the tax free lump sum. You don't have the option of taking any lump sum at 20%.Am I wrong ?
Thanks for the work you’re putting into this post and discussion.
I’ve no idea what other point you are trying to make now but frankly it comes across as sour grapes.
DB scheme 1.5 times final salary. If final salary 150k, lump sum equals 225k. 200k tax free and 25k at 20% tax I understood.I appreciate this seems clear to you Sarenco but I don't think the point Ilgon and I are trying to make is coming across clearly. I'll have a think about this and do another post in a few days – it's obviously an important issue.
As far as I know, yes. If you belong to a DB scheme only, the only lump sum you get is the tax free lump sum. You don't have the option of taking any lump sum at 20%.
I don't think this is right. My understanding is that, once you've joined a defined benefit scheme your max pension benefits are capped at the salary / periods of service rules set out for DB pensions (subject also to the €2.15 million max). See Chapter 7 of the revenue pensions manual here: https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/pensions/chapter-07.pdf As long as you're a member of the DB scheme, additional investments in your pension may be made by way of AVC or PRSA-AVC only, and these are subject to AVC funding limits.DB scheme 1.5 times final salary. If final salary 150k, lump sum equals 225k. 200k tax free and 25k at 20% tax I understood.
You're not wrong.‘You may also take tax free (in the case of DC / DB schemes) or 20% tax advantaged (in the case of DC schemes only) lump sums.’
If referring to excess lump sum, I thought it also applied to DB.
For example, final salary 140k
X 1.5 = 210k
200k tax free. 10k taxed at 20%.
Assuming no other lump sums taken.
Am I wrong ?
Thanks for the work you’re putting into this post and discussion.
I get that.My pension strategy is to ensure I have made provision to maximise my tax free lump sum and provide enough pension income in retirement to bring me past the marginal tax rate. After that I see little advantage investing within a pension and prefer the flexibility and returns investing elsewhere provides.
Yup, that’s clear.Nothing so far has convinced me to change.
The pension lump sum is defined as an amount based on your salary and length of service, or alternatively as 25% of the value of your fund. There is no other limit to the pension lump sum. Of that pensions lump sum, 200k is tax free, the next 300knis taxed at 20%, and a thing over 500k is taxed as income under PAYE.I appreciate this seems clear to you Sarenco but I don't think the point Ilgon and I are trying to make is coming across clearly. I'll have a think about this and do another post in a few days – it's obviously an important issue.
As far as I know, yes. If you belong to a DB scheme only, the only lump sum you get is the tax free lump sum. You don't have the option of taking any lump sum at 20%.
It still makes sense to grow one’s pension beyond the point at which the one will pay marginal rate income tax.No sour grapes here. My pension strategy is to ensure I have made provision to maximise my tax free lump sum and provide enough pension income in retirement to bring me past the marginal tax rate. After that I see little advantage investing within a pension and prefer the flexibility and returns investing elsewhere provides.
I am comfortable with this strategy but am very open to change if I see reason to. I was happy to see Ent's thread on the issue and have read all the posts and contributed. Nothing so far has convinced me to change but I will read on with interest.
No, this is not correct.I don't think this is right. My understanding is that, once you've joined a defined benefit scheme your max pension benefits are capped at the salary / periods of service rules set out for DB pensions (subject also to the €2.15 million max). See Chapter 7 of the revenue pensions manual here: https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/pensions/chapter-07.pdf As long as you're a member of the DB scheme, additional investments in your pension may be made by way of AVC or PRSA-AVC only, and these are subject to AVC funding limits.
If you have a DC pension in addition to a DB scheme from previous employment you could take €200,000 tax free lump sum from the DB and then claim a tax advantaged lump sum from the DC pension. That's the way it works I think.
This is not the case for defined benefit pensions, to my understanding, but @Conan may be able to correct.No, this is not correct.
Also, I'd point out again that the position is very different for someone in a defined benefit scheme who can only pull a tax free lump sum and not the additional amount at 20%. They can't take a large chunk out of their pension in a tax-advantaged way (20%) to reduce their tax liability later on.
For example, a diligent investor on a career average defined benefit scheme could have a pension worth €2,000,000 – 800,000 from the occupation pension and 1,200,00 in an AVC. The Occupational Pension might pay €40,000 PA for that + Lump Sum. The person may only spend €60,000 topping up their lump sum. This leaves you with an AVC worth €1,140,000. If ARFd annual drawdowns would have to be €45600 per year. Your income is now €85600 per year and you're paying 40% + 8% USC on portions of that.
Even if the AVC was a slightly more modest / reasonable 500,000 (20,000 at 4%) you'd face a similar problem. 40% tax + USC on aspects of your income. Maybe if you'd reduced that you could get the lower USC rate when you're 70.
NP thanks for the input.Thanks for the contributions everyone, makes for interesting reading.
Ent319, you bring up some interesting points. In the extract I have taken above and from my understanding of DB schemes I think you are misinformed on 2 points but perhaps another more knowledgeable poster than me might corroborate or debunk my thoughts.
My thinking on the above could be incorrect because it could be the case that your particular scheme rules allow for it.
- It is my understanding that as part of a DB scheme there are no caps to the tax free lump sum. Your wage determines it. Whether that is 200k or 250k or 140k etc.
- You made a point of utilising AVC to bum up the tax free lump sum. I do not believe this is possible. Again, it is only your wage that can be used. You would need to convert your AVC into an ARF and then draw it down.
Year | Growth | Invested | Base Capital (A) | Tax Relief (B) | Lump Sum | Tax on Lump Sum | Remainder | Marginal Tax Rate | Tax | Return |
0 | 6% | € 1,000 | € 600 | € 400 | ||||||
1 | 6% | € 1,060 | € 265 | 20% | € 795 | 52% | € 466 | € 593.60 | ||
2 | 6% | € 1,124 | € 281 | 20% | € 843 | 52% | € 494 | € 629.22 | ||
3 | 6% | € 1,191 | € 298 | 20% | € 893 | 52% | € 524 | € 666.97 | ||
4 | 6% | € 1,262 | € 316 | 20% | € 947 | 52% | € 555 | € 706.99 | ||
5 | 6% | € 1,338 | € 335 | 20% | € 1,004 | 52% | € 589 | € 749.41 | ||
6 | 6% | € 1,419 | € 355 | 20% | € 1,064 | 52% | € 624 | € 794.37 | ||
7 | 6% | € 1,504 | € 376 | 20% | € 1,128 | 52% | € 662 | € 842.03 | ||
8 | 6% | € 1,594 | € 398 | 20% | € 1,195 | 52% | € 701 | € 892.55 | ||
9 | 6% | € 1,689 | € 422 | 20% | € 1,267 | 52% | € 743 | € 946.11 | ||
10 | 6% | € 1,791 | € 448 | 20% | € 1,343 | 52% | € 788 | € 1,002.87 | ||
11 | 6% | € 1,898 | € 475 | 20% | € 1,424 | 52% | € 835 | € 1,063.05 | ||
12 | 6% | € 2,012 | € 503 | 20% | € 1,509 | 52% | € 885 | € 1,126.83 | ||
13 | 6% | € 2,133 | € 533 | 20% | € 1,600 | 52% | € 938 | € 1,194.44 | ||
14 | 6% | € 2,261 | € 565 | 20% | € 1,696 | 52% | € 995 | € 1,266.11 | ||
15 | 6% | € 2,397 | € 599 | 20% | € 1,797 | 52% | € 1,054 | € 1,342.07 | ||
16 | 6% | € 2,540 | € 635 | 20% | € 1,905 | 52% | € 1,118 | € 1,422.60 |
Year | Growth | Invested | Gain | Exit Tax Rate | Exit Tax | ETF Return |
0 | 6% | € 600 | ||||
1 | 6% | € 636 | € 36 | 41.0% | € 15 | € 621 |
2 | 6% | € 674 | € 74 | 41% | € 30 | € 644 |
3 | 6% | € 715 | € 115 | 41% | € 47 | € 668 |
4 | 6% | € 757 | € 157 | 41% | € 65 | € 693 |
5 | 6% | € 803 | € 203 | 41% | € 83 | € 720 |
6 | 6% | € 851 | € 251 | 41% | € 103 | € 748 |
7 | 6% | € 902 | € 302 | 41% | € 124 | € 778 |
8 | 6% | € 956 | € 356 | 41% | € 146 | € 810 |
9 | 6% | € 859 | € - | 41% | € - | € 859 |
10 | 6% | € 910 | € 52 | 41% | € 21 | € 889 |
11 | 6% | € 965 | € 106 | 41% | € 44 | € 921 |
12 | 6% | € 1,023 | € 164 | 41% | € 67 | € 956 |
13 | 6% | € 1,084 | € 225 | 41% | € 92 | € 992 |
14 | 6% | € 1,149 | € 290 | 41% | € 119 | € 1,030 |
15 | 6% | € 1,218 | € 359 | 41% | € 147 | € 1,071 |
16 | 6% | € 1,291 | € 433 | 41% | € 177 | € 1,114 |
But you will be drawing down the majority of your pension after 66 at which point you won't pay PRSI and after 70 you will probably have lower USC as well.The results are in the table below. The combined effect of the 52% & 20% tax rates slightly overpower the 40% tax relief so you need fund growth for this to make sense. But if your investment term is reasonably long, then it is worth it.
The only time would be if you have maxed out the relief percentage (based on the age) so need it to go some where else more productive.Anyway I have yet to see a good reason to see why an Irish-resident individual with a steady income should favour investments in financial products outside of a pension. The tax treatment is just too harsh.
But you will be drawing down the majority of your pension after 66 at which point you won't pay PRSI and after 70 you will probably have lower USC as well.
I have assumed an almost worst case scenario where the additional increase in the lump sum is subject to 20% tax and the additional income from the ARF is subject to 52% tax.
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