Paying LPT on property I may not own in 2014

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fender

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I am selling a property which I expect to close in 2013.

What do I do regarding paying the LPT for this? I do not want to give Revenue the authorisation to deduct money from my account when I may not own the property in 2014.

Do I just sign up to pay it and have solicitor negotiate getting it back as part of the contract of Sale?
 
Register the property but don't make or commit to any payment, and as soon as contracts are signed inform revenue of this if it happens this year.
 
If you own the property on 1st November 2013 then you are liable for the LPT for 2014, so there's not a lot you can do now unfortunately.
 
Hi Tommy

Where is the pointless bureaucracy?

How would you change the system to make it less bureaucratic?

It strikes me as a fairly efficient system.

Brendan
 
The pointless bureaucracy is in someone who is selling a house today being asked to pay next year's property tax on the house this year and then having reclaim it from the purchaser via their solicitor.

The LPT liability for 2014 should be payable on the basis of ownership of a property on a date within 2014 (eg 1 January) and not on a date in 2013.
 
Hi Tommy

changing the date would make virtually no difference.

Let's say that they change the date to 1 January. Someone who sells on 30 June would still have to reclaim the 6 months of LPT they had paid.

It's not very complicated. Solicitors are used to doing these apportionments.

And it makes sure that people pay their LPT as they can't sell their homes without paying it.

Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Let's say that they change the date to 1 January. Someone who sells on 30 June would still have to reclaim the 6 months of LPT they had paid.
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Would they? Does liability for the LPT not rest on the concept of ownership of the property on a stated liability date, as applied with the HC & NPPR, rather than on ownership over an entire calendar year? If not, that's more pointless bureaucracy.
 
T McGibney said:
Would they? Does liability for the LPT not rest on the concept of ownership of the property on a stated liability date, as applied with the HC & NPPR, rather than on ownership over an entire calendar year? If not, that's more pointless bureaucracy.
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I don't understand - you appear yo be saying you agree with the concept of a liability date, but the timing of the date results in pointless bureaucracy?

How much less pointless would it be if the date was 1st January?

I'm sure there's a reason why they've picked the date they have, and Josephine Feehily will no doubt explain it to the Dail Finance Committee.

One reason off the top of my head, if there are going to be tens or hundreds of thousands of people opting for DD payment, they need a lead-in time to make sure those instructions all go onto the system in good time before 15 January. Making sure the most convenient payment methodology functions efficiently is hardly pointless bureaucracy IMHO.
 
Surely it's no different to selling a car with 12 months tax paid.
You just take it into account when negotiating the price.

Same situation if you are selling a house and leaving curtains, kitchen appliances etc.

I don't see the need for solicitors to be involved in that minute detail.
 
mandelbrot said:
I don't understand - you appear yo be saying you agree with the concept of a liability date, but the timing of the date results in pointless bureaucracy?

How much less pointless would it be if the date was 1st January?
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There's something counterintuitive about having a 2014 property tax liability on the basis of owning the property sometime in 2013.

If the liability date was instead in 2014, there would be no complaint.
 
At least with a car you can chose not to tax it and having tax would not be a condition of sale.
 
T McGibney said:
There's something counterintuitive about having a 2014 property tax liability on the basis of owning the property sometime in 2013.

If the liability date was instead in 2014, there would be no complaint.
Click to expand...

And how then do you manage the collection from people who want to pay by DD or deduction from salary / pension?

I suppose you could have it collected over 9 or 10 month rather than the full 12, but that would cause its own set of admin problems for the people making the deductions...
 
T McGibney said:
There's something counterintuitive about having a 2014 property tax liability on the basis of owning the property sometime in 2013.

If the liability date was instead in 2014, there would be no complaint.
Click to expand...

Fair point.

So change the liability date to 1 January each year?

Change the deadline for making the returns to 31 January.

Deduct the money by direct debit from mid March to Mid February. But then you are paying LPT in 2015 for a 2014 liability.

So deduct the money by direct debit from mid March to mid December.

It would be easier to understand ok.

Liability date, return date and payment date all in the same year.

I think that there could be the basis for a proposal there.

I presume that the dates are set in legislation, so the legislation would have to change.

Brendan
 
mandelbrot said:
And how then do you manage the collection from people who want to pay by DD or deduction from salary / pension?

I suppose you could have it collected over 9 or 10 month rather than the full 12, but that would cause its own set of admin problems for the people making the deductions...
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Simples.

You set the liability date at 1 January.

You tell people this.

You offer them the opportunity to deduct over 12 months provided they apply in advance, before a certain date in November or December.

Otherwise you don't request any payment from anyone before the New Year.
 
T McGibney said:
The pointless bureaucracy is in someone who is selling a house today being asked to pay next year's property tax on the house this year and then having reclaim it from the purchaser via their solicitor.

The LPT liability for 2014 should be payable on the basis of ownership of a property on a date within 2014 (eg 1 January) and not on a date in 2013.
Click to expand...

I just sold an investment property. Had to pay the property tax for 2014 to complete the sale. The buyer is eligible for an exemption on the property tax till 2016 :)

This is blatant stealing from me by the government no matter which way the naysayers want to look at it. I am well out of the renting business , we are screwed every which way we look. I hope the government **** off all the landlords eventually and they can house everyone themselves!
 
T McGibney said:
There's something counterintuitive about having a 2014 property tax liability on the basis of owning the property sometime in 2013.

If the liability date was instead in 2014, there would be no complaint.
Click to expand...

Why get hung up over a calendar year?
The LPT year runs from November 1 to the following October 31 - most probably for the reasons stated by Mandelbrot.
 
callybags said:
I don't see the need for solicitors to be involved in that minute detail.
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But you absolutely do need solicitors to be involved, otherwise it would never be sort. The fines that people are now paying in NPPR on close of sale is running to thousands.

I'm beginning to think the main problem with the LPT is that the revenue gave too many options on payment. For the NPPR and the Household charge it was very simple, you had one liability date, and one payment date, and you paid in one lump sum.
 
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There is certainly a need to change the liability date. I (as first time buyer) bought after 2 Nov 2013, had to refund the LPT to the vendors who were liable on 1 Nov 2013 as there was a charge on the property for 2014 when we were owners - under instruction from a solicitor. I would really really like my money back!
 
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