Paying full equity but being hounded for arrears

[Kitten]

Hey, apologies if this has been covered but I am at my wits end with Lapithus.

• Mortgage on family home on tracker mortgage, originally BOSI and then Tanager Ltd
  • Original loan 26/06/07 €492,500 30 years
  • Balance €425,693.09 as at 31/12/16
  • Arrears €15,643.27 they were €21,688.40 on 17/04/14
  • Current repayments €1,825.63 which is full repayment (interest & equity) paying since September 2015, I was paying €1,200 from Sept 2014 - 2015.
  • Market value €600,000
• I asked to recapitalise the arrears with a view to doing a deal after 6 months as I have just started a new job and need to get to probation. They refused saying we had 'affordability' to clear down the arrears to the monthly amount of an additional €770 which we just don't have.
• I offered to pay €2k cash up front and increase payments to €2k monthly for a year if they would the recapitalise the remainder of the arrears and we would then do a deal.
• They refused.
• They have offered to buy it out for €340k or thereabouts but with the arrears we can't get another lender (apart from Pepper but I'm dubious).
• I would rather recapitalise and then do a deal but they are now going legal, have called in the full amount and want to go down the repossession route.

I have engaged fully, made 3 different submissions to work with them and they are refusing to engage at all. I just don't have 15k to give them.

Advice on Pepper? Should I beg, borrow and/or steal to clear the arrears? Will an Irish bank even give me a mortgage at that point?
Also I got my credit check which stops at 2014 when the loan transfers to Tanager so all the good I have done in making full payments is not even recognised - how long does this stand for, am I ever going to be able to get credit again?

Thank you.
Kitten

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Kitten

First of all, read this Key Post

Advice for people facing court repossession proceedings

Tanager haven't a hope in hell of getting an order for possession against you, if you carry on paying as you are.

Document every single contact. Every call. Follow up every call with an email documenting what was said and what was agreed.

Obviously, if you can get a family loan to clear the arrears you should consider it. But maybe keep that powder dry until it might be more useful after about two years of adjournments.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Let's look at their offer to accept €340k and I assume you can get the €340k from Pepper at 5%. You don't give your current rate of interest but it looks like around 0.5%

http://loan.bizcalcs.com/Calculator.asp?Calc=Compare-Loan-Payments#LinkToThis

You could get a write down of €85,000 . Extend the term to 30 years and the repayments would be the same.

5% is a very expensive loan. But if you felt that your credit record would be repaired within 5 years and/or if you felt you could up your repayments, it would be worth considering.

If you could switch to another lender at 3%, then it would be a great deal.

It would obviously be hugely in your interest to have the capital written down by €85,000 if there was any chance that Tanager might get an order and then recover the full amount.

Brendan

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Have you considered trading down?

If you sell the house for €600k and pay Tanager €340k you would have €260k to buy a house without a mortgage.

Or you could buy a house for €400k with a €140k mortgage.

This would free you from a lot of financial pressure and allow you to maybe build up savings and equity a lot quicker.

Of course, if you stick it out with Tanager, every year, you are paying down over €20k of capital and getting to keep your house.

Another alternative, to consider, although it's probably not viable, is to let out your house and rent a cheaper house.

Brendan

 

[Kitten]

Thank you for taking the time to answer Brendan. Our rate is .75 (Feb 16), I assume it hasn't dropped since then. We were never given a rate with Pepper as we didn't go as far as getting a quote, we were advised verbally based on our info that they would lend to us (assuming all papers etc were in order).
Trading down isn't really an option as we are a family of 6. Similarly renting where we live would cost as much if not more actually.
Reading that you believe they haven't a hope of a possession order is comforting as given the letters we are receiving it makes you feel like they are going to land on the doorstep with a notice and that's it, we're out. I haven't missed a single payment since I took over the mortgage which was Sept 14. Do you know that if I do clear the arrears, do we automatically revert to paying the mortgage or has it gone that far that they won't let that happen? Or at that point will they push to do a deal? I just don't want to get the cash together if it's not going to benefit us and take the pressure off?
I have read the document on facing court and I'd be absolutely fine representing us, I don't mind speaking in public etc.
Really appreciate your input.
K

 

[Brendan Burgess]

given the letters we are receiving it makes you feel like they are going to land on the doorstep with a notice and that's it, we're out.

Any chance you could email me a copy of that letter. This is the type of thing which the Central Bank should be coming down on like a ton of bricks. If you send me the letter, I might make a submission based on it to the CB to change the Code of Conduct on Mortgage Arrears.

It might be deliberately misleading or it could be that the Central Bank has specified that they must include warnings which make it frightening.

Do you know that if I do clear the arrears, do we automatically revert to paying the mortgage or has it gone that far that they won't let that happen? Or at that point will they push to do a deal? I just don't want to get the cash together if it's not going to benefit us and take the pressure off?

If you clear the arrears, there really is nothing at all that they can do.

But you are not wasting the cash. If you get the cash together and clear the arrears, it also reduces the money you owe. So if you can get it together without much pain, it's worth doing as it will take the pressure off and your credit record will start repairing.

Brendan

 

[Open air]

Hi kitten,,when did they issue proceedings?

 

[newtothis]

A few points:

- You are not alone! Reading your summary is scarily familiar to me and no doubt many others: we've a very similar story, though in our case the players are different (Danske/Pepper/Cerberus/Capita in our case) our numbers are very similar
- I would say you have absolutely nothing to worry in terms of being taken to court: they would be laughed out of it. You're paying full interest and capital and they want to repossess? I'd nearly write to them if they do threaten you and say you'd welcome the opportunity to set your case out before a third party and you hope they are equally well prepared.
- One thing you might want to consider is to up the repayment slightly (to say €1,900) to establish a principle that you are actively paying down the arrears, even if very slowly (we're doing this)
- We're in a similar position in relation to credit history. It seems none of the vulture funds subscribe to the ICB, so any information recorded (invariably bad in these cases) is just left hanging as you say. I'm trying to see if anything can be done about this at the moment: I'll report any progress I make here.
- You should familiarise yourself with the Central Bank's Code of Conduct on Mortgage Arears. Tanager aren't subject to it, but whoever they use to manage the account (Lapithus?) is. They've almost certainly breached multiple provisions. No harm in writing to them and pointing each of these out to them. Unfortunately, there's ultimately very little to be gained directly from it (CCMA is full of what happens to borrowers who won't engage, and completely silent on lenders who won't engage), but it will help to fill out a paper trail of their failings.
- I can't stress enough the advice already given to document as much as possible every interaction with them, again with the objective of creating a paper trail. Personally, I no longer engage with them on the phone, as it is difficult if not impossible to keep an accurate record of phone conversations
- You will no doubt have discovered just how incompetent they are: this is frustrating, but again can be brought into the paper trail. Keep everything polite and straightforward in communicating with them: the more reasonable and helpful you seem, the more you will show them up.

In summary: you are not alone, try not to worry and things will almost certainly work out for you.

 

[Kitten]

Hi Openair,

We received a solicitors letter dated 18th April commencing Court proceedings which also weighs heavily on the costs that will be attributed to us in the sum of €18,000.

It never ends.

Kitten

 

[Kitten]

Newtothis,

Thank you so much, it is great to know we aren't on our own because there are times you feel like the world is closing in and there is no end. Then you relax for a bit and another letter arrives more threatening than the last one and bang you're back in stress city again. I'm commencing a new role next week and need to move my mortgage payment by a few days as my date of payment is different so I'm going to increase payments to €2k monthly. We were originally told by Tanager that once we had 6 months of full equity paid we could then recapitalise, so when we approached them after fulfilling that they declined, the guy from Certus actually said he was surprised as he had seen far worse cases recapitalised and we should definitely appeal. Naturally he has since left and our appeal was turned down, after which I offered to increase payments to 2k, declined, offered recently to increase to 2k and give an upfront payment of 2k, declined. It becomes very frustrating.

So I'll increase now to 2k and go to court. I'm going to put my paper trail in order this weekend so I am prepared. Do court dates get set fairly quickly? Can't actually believe we are at this stage.........

Kitten

 

[elcato]

I would be inclined not to raise payments at all until they make you an offer. Remember these letters are designed to make you afraid and pay up so don't worry about the threats (I know it's hard to ignore). A judge will seriously throw the book at these guys in court so that may well not happen. They are preying on your fears. Send that latest letter to Brendan as well. Do not accept phone calls just tell them firmly that now that court proceedings have started you have been advised to put all in writing. Trust me, that will put the shoe on the other foot and they will be cringing.

 

[newtothis]

I would be inclined not to raise payments at all until they make you an offer. Remember these letters are designed to make you afraid and pay up so don't worry about the threats (I know it's hard to ignore). A judge will seriously throw the book at these guys in court so that may well not happen. They are preying on your fears. Send that latest letter to Brendan as well. Do not accept phone calls just tell them firmly that now that court proceedings have started you have been advised to put all in writing. Trust me, that will put the shoe on the other foot and they will be cringing.

I'd agree with all of this. When I suggested increasing the payment, it was by a very small amount (even €10/month is fine) to establish the principle of paying down the arrears. It prevents them making the argument "they're refusing to pay down the arrears". I wouldn't do it by the amount you suggest, as I imagine you need the extra cash. As for the threat of €18k they are living in some kind of fantasy land if they think costs are going to be awarded against you: it's nothing but an idle threat designed to scare you.

No harm in writing to them as I suggested pointing out where they have failed to meet specific MARP provisions (which no doubt they have) and welcoming the opportunity they've given you to set your case out in court.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

We were originally told by Tanager that once we had 6 months of full equity paid we could then recapitalise,

Hi Kitten

Do you have the details of this conversation? The date. The name of the person who told you? Did you follow up with an email to confirm this?

I think it's a good idea to make a small contribution to reducing the arrears so that you can tell the Registrar that the arrears are also reducing, despite the fact that they told you that they would capitalise the arrears.

It will take about 3 months before you get a court date. It will be automatically adjourned at that court date. But you should attend and speak and tell your story. There is a good chance that the Registrar will give you a long adjournment if you ask for one.

Brendan

 

[newtothis]

Another thing you could do as part of preparation is to request all the data they hold on you, including any recorded conversations (chances are there aren't any).

See: https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Accessing-Your-Personal-Information/r/14.htm

If there's something they later claim that is not evident from the data they supplied, they are either fabricating it or haven't supplied you with all information, neither of which looks good for them (and may well be illegal).

 

[Open air]

Hi kitten,i have a similar story here in this forum ,called "vulture fund civil bill",almost identical to yours,although i think you are in a even better position than me.I think tanager didnt expect some of these loans to perform again,,were hoping for repo and quick sale,,and also bleed the homeowner for every penny in the meantime.They are impossible to deal with,do not abide by the ccma,and can be quiet intimidating.Ill keep you posted of my situation,,what a horrible place our families have been backed in to!.

 

[Thirsty]

"originally told by Tanager that once we had 6 months of full equity paid we could then recapitalise....they declined"

Another reason for only dealing in writing. They can, and do, say what they like on the phone.