Overseas aid - are we getting too generous ?

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AJC

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I see the government are planning to give away 0.7% of GNP to overseas aid in the not too distant future. By my rough calculation, this amounts to approximately 1.7% of total tax revenue (Based on figures for the finance department September Economic Bulletin, GNP est for 2005 was 136.1Billion, General Government receipts were 55.4Billion. 0.7% of GNP as a proportion of government receipts comes to around 1.7%)

Given the infrastructural deficits we still have in areas such as schools and hospitals etc. as well as other worthy causes, can we really afford to be this generous ?
 
Of course we can afford this. Are we not the second wealthiest nation in the world?
http://www.finfacts.ie/biz10/WealthotheNationReport-July'06.pdf
 
Yer man Bono the [broken link removed] would be very cross with us if we didn't...
 
I think 0.7 is the least we can do for those humans living in squalour on this planet, I'd like to see more. The question I would like answered however is how this is to be managed to ensure we get value for money. I'm a fan of GOAL and some of their commentary on how money from the Irish government is allocated give me cause for concern.
 
Scandinavian countries give around 1-1.4% of gnp. I feel we have a moral obligation to help those struggling to just feed themselves while western corporations make billions from the natural resources of their countries. yes there is corruption in developing countries but the multinationals are part of the problem as is the western world for not ensuring aid and development assistance gets to the most needy. if you saw kids dying of hunger somewhere in ireland you would be moved to help them so why not africans or asians? Theres plenty of money to build infrastructure here and to give 1-2cents out of every euro the governemtn gets from us in tax to help the most needy and destitude people on the planet, or maybe this reasoning doesnt chime with your own philosphy on life and the world,maybe your ancestors who survived the potato famine and received help in form of food donations should have had to fend for themselves ?.
 
I would say it is better spent than giving over fifteen million of public money to a corporate event on the private grounds of a person who is a tax exile to avoid wasting good money on things like hospitals or homeless shelters instead of vintage Bordeaux.
 
There's nothing stopping individuals from giving more! - feel free, there are plenty of charities out there who would be only too pleased.

Maybe there should be a separation of state and charity. Not everyone in Ireland can be so generous with their tax euros.
 
umop3p!sdn said:
There's nothing stopping individuals from giving more! - feel free, there are plenty of charities out there who would be only too pleased.

Maybe there should be a separation of state and charity. Not everyone in Ireland can be so generous with their tax euros.
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Those that can't afford to pay 2cent of each one euro of their tax paid probably are'nt paying much tax in first place. Mayeb there should be a levy on high earners especially for developing countries/humanitarian aid.
 
Yes, I think we can afford it, and yes, we should do it. And more.
AJC said:
Given the infrastructural deficits we still have in areas such as schools and hospitals etc. as well as other worthy causes, can we really afford to be this generous ?
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Maybe we wouldn't have such glaring defecits if successive governments didn't squander so much through incompetence, venality and profiteering?
 
DrMoriarty said:
Yes, I think we can afford it, and yes, we should do it. And more.Maybe we wouldn't have such glaring defecits if successive governments didn't squander so much through incompetence, venality and profiteering?
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Was thinking about this but couldn't put it better than the above. And now not only is squandering it not enough but apparantly sure we don't need a couple of billion a year either..

Honestly given we were amongst the first to put ourselves forward for the millenium target of .7 of gdp i was embaressed and ashamed when we renaged on that slap bang in the middle of the supposed 'celtic tiger'.
 
Eurofan said:
Honestly given we were amongst the first to put ourselves forward for the millenium target of .7 of gdp i was embaressed and ashamed when we renaged on that slap bang in the middle of the supposed 'celtic tiger'.
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Not that it totally excuses it but you must remember that with the extremely large increases in GNP over the past 10 years in this country, even keeping the aid budget at the previous level in terms of percentage of GNP warranted a large increase in spending in real terms so we haven't done all that badly really (although I do think we could do better).
 
If we (and I mean the great Irish public and our equally-great elected representatives) really gave a damn about the developing world, we would (a) lobby the EU to abolish the ridiculous system of farm subsidies we pay to our farmers, and (b) lobby the EU to remove all tariffs on agricultural goods coming from the Third World. Instead, we are one of the worst culprits for propping up such a ridiculously inequitable global trading system.

Of course, we'll never do that. In the spirit of the Celtic Tiger, it is far easier to throw some cash at the problem to salve our consciences, than it is to do anything that might make life just that little bit harder for us (debatable given the tiny % of EU and Irish economic activity deriving from agriculture), or that little bit fairer for those wretched people.
 
I am totally against the government giving out money to resource rich countries.

€750m rising to 1 500m by 2012. Way too much. If people wish give to an extra percent or two of their tax, then they should be facilitated. This should not be forced down peoples throats by do-gooders.

Don't forget we're spending 400m-750m pa on refugees and God knows how much on services for these people.

By the way, I would also end a lot of "welfare" schemes in Ireland as well. Those tribunals should go at once. Welfare for lawyers.

Interesting article here:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html ("For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid!")
 
anseo said:
Don't forget we're spending 400m-750m pa on refugees and God knows how much on services for these people.

By the way, I would also end a lot of "welfare" schemes in Ireland as well. Those tribunals should go at once. Welfare for lawyers.
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Where do you get your figures re our spending on refugees, it's just that any figures that give a range where the top end is 90% higher than the lower, may be taken with a pinch of salt.
As for your tribunal statement, how much money do you think the various tribunals have brought in, I'm not sure myself, but if we look at the recent Bovale settlements, the Ansbacher and DIRT enquiries, not to mention the various smaller individuals who are investigated by revenue as a result of tribunal appearances, it may well be that they actually make money.
You should also remember that chances are that lawyers fees for tribunal work are taxed extensively, so say, 35% comes straight back that way.
Finally, what do you think the refugees, persons working in refugee related employment, tribunal lawyers etc do with their money? Do they squirrel it away offshore? Perhaps, they spend it? If so, chances are they pay VAT at 21%, VRT at another 30%, in fact on any goods and services which in some way or another assist our overall economy and create employment in the economy as a whole.
Back to topic, Sherman makes some excellent points re subsidies, as does bearish re our moral obligations.
 
In my view, much of the high living standards we enjoy in western economies are as a result of our effective exploitation of the third world. We owe them!

I think we should be giving more, nothing to stop us giving right up to the target that has never actually been met by any government. We look back at famine times in Ireland and at how almost nobody came to our aid, so what's the problem with learning from our own history?

The issue I would have with the manner in which aid is handled would be more specific, and maybe this is the debate that should be taking place, not looking at how we can give less.

1. Increased aid spending by Ireland is being managed by a reduced staff in department of Foreign Affairs. What kind of controls are there on this spending?

2. Why has auditing not been increased in line with increased spend? We need to know that the money is being spent effectively.

3. The easy way to spend foreign aid is to give it to governments, but its not the right way.

4. Why have we never seen public evidence that DFA has recovered money from bodies that have mis-spent funds? Surely not all NGOs are perfect? There must be some abuses, and we deserve to know about them.

5. Irish Aid funding also includes the cost of the clipboard carriers who attach themselves to almost all aid projects (ok, there are lots of exceptions), and who bring no added value except the production of endless reports about reports about reports. This cost should be shown separately, and the organisations that draw down aid funding shouild be encouraged to lose many of these parisites.
 
If you want a really good read on this and other related topics you should get your hands on:

Making Globalization Work - Joseph Stiglitz
 
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