Overcharged by solicitor

K

kildarebuild

Registered User
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Forgive me, if this question seems like many others, but it is slightly different, we recently moved our mortgage from one bank to another. We had also transferred the site from my wife into our joint names.

We asked for a quote on this, she verbally informed us over the phone that it would be 1400. We do not have this in writing.

The final sum from the solicitor has come in as 2560. An astounding 1250 over the initial quotation.

Since our solicitor was dealing with the mortgage etc she has already paid herself by writing a cheque out of the money that was being transferred! So she has effectively paid herself without informing us of so.

I want to know what approach should I take? Since the last thing I want to do is get on the wrong side of a solicitor. But I feel I have been taken advantage of. Which I hate.

The law states that all solicitors should inform the client of the fees in writing beforehand? Do i have any grounds here? If I bring it up what would her reaction be?

i intend to try and resolve this overcharging issue peacefully, (have not been in touch with her yet.) Plan is to write an email asking her to explain the sudden increase of the fees. Thats it. Or should I be more direct and book an appointment in her office and discuss it with her, despite the fact she probably would charge me for taking up her time.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
 
1400 all in ( which for a mortgage and transfer would be nigh on impossible) or 1400 fee plus VAT ( 301) and outlay ( PRAI fees of 125 on the new charge, 85 on the transfer, 25 on the old charge, potentially 60 on a new folio and 25 on an updated filed plan on completion, total 320: plus old bank charge on release of docs or vacate- anything up to 120; plus search fees of anywhere between 100 to 300 ( depending on title), commissioner for oaths fees etc. These are the outlays based on just what you have said, there may well be more ( almost inevitably WILL be more) depending on the circumstances. I doubt you have been overcharged, I think you misunderstood the circumstance of the quote. But to repeat- to do the work you mention, inclusive of VAT and outlay, would be impossible. And a fee of 1400 (exclusive of VAT and outlay) is by no means high- it would be a fairly standard, verging on the low side, fee.
 
Complainer said:
Possibly because the solicitor didn't make it clear that VAT and outlays were excluded?
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Or because clients choose not to hear? Anything? Many of my clients are deaf, deaf, and deaf.

But yes, it would make life a great deal easier for everyone if the fees, VAT and outlays were spelled out, in writing, in advance

As Vanilla has said, the final figure is not a huge amount in terms of fees, VAT and outlays for the work done.

I am sick to the back teeth of casual callers asking for an all in quote when they have not got the first clue of (a) what they are talking about and (b) what is involved. I basically will not quote anymore unless it is to a known client who has some grasp of the work involved in a transaction and who does not expect me to subsidise their dealings.



mf
 
mf1 said:
Or because clients choose not to hear? Anything? Many of my clients are deaf, deaf, and deaf.

But yes, it would make life a great deal easier for everyone if the fees, VAT and outlays were spelled out, in writing, in advance
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Indeed, putting it in writing (as I understood that solicitors were legally obliged to do) would eliminate doubts for everyone.
mf1 said:
I am sick to the back teeth of casual callers asking for an all in quote when they have not got the first clue of (a) what they are talking about and (b) what is involved. I basically will not quote anymore unless it is to a known client who has some grasp of the work involved in a transaction and who does not expect me to subsidise their dealings.
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I'm guessing that things must not be as bad in the legal business as the press would have us believe if solicitors expect their clients to have legal degrees before they get taken on as clients!
 
Careful with the deaf comments! I am actually deaf!

Thanks for all the feedback. I still feel I was mis-led on purpose. - 1400 to 2650 is quite an increase... but as vanilla says it is about right.

She is also a family solicitor who has been used for the past 20 odd years.
 
Why can't solicitors quote 'all in' though? A builder/plumber/dentist will give a price all inclusive of parts, labour and VAT so what prevents solicitors from doing the same? I'm sure a good solicitor has a very good idea of what most things will cost from the outset would they not?
 
murphaph said:
Why can't solicitors quote 'all in' though? A builder/plumber/dentist will give a price all inclusive of parts, labour and VAT so what prevents solicitors from doing the same? I'm sure a good solicitor has a very good idea of what most things will cost from the outset would they not?
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Hi there - its a simple remortgage.

Oh and by the way I need you to give the following undertakings.........discharge my car loan, visa bill, credit card bill. But I'm not going to tell you any of that because you might think that involved extra work because you had to check the amount, get redemption figures, to a particular date, which might change because I have not yet sorted out my life cover, insurance and valuation fees!

Oh and I don't know if the property is registered title or unregistered title, whether there is more than one mortgage, oh and did I mention that I built a huge extension with no planning permission ( oh, goodness me , does that matter? do you have to give a full certificate of title that makes you personally responsible for all the teeny tiny litle details that I choose not to tell you?) Yawn. oh and that I actually have two (or is it three?) top ups? All of which need to be dealt with.....discharged, paid off and registered.

Oh yeah and while you're at it, can you just change details of ownership - I forgot to tell the bank that even though we're both applying for the new mortgage that actually she is the sole owner so actually we can't both be on the mortgage because ( oh is'nt this like so funny!) I don't own the property.

So, you know what, maybe if we were'nt all so quick to believe that all the consumers are entirely straight up and honest with their solicitors and did not deliberately choose to fudge minor details to muddy the waters, and that all solicitors are deliberately out there to maul their clients, you might all just think that perhaps, ( just a thought) there might just be two sides.

And you do not need a law degree to tell the truth - or give all the facts when looking for a price.

mf
 
I understand the law Society requires a Solicitor to give an estimate in writting of the cost of any assignement before they take it on,and it is strictly enforced
 
mf1 said:
... And you do not need a law degree to tell the truth - or give all the facts when looking for a price...
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So maybe an aide memoire for the client and a check-list for the lawyer issued before discussing a price might avoid nasty surprises once the work is complete?
 
kildarebuild said:
Careful with the deaf comments! I am actually deaf!

Thanks for all the feedback. I still feel I was mis-led on purpose. - 1400 to 2650 is quite an increase... but as vanilla says it is about right.

She is also a family solicitor who has been used for the past 20 odd years.
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OP I don't think you were misled on purpose, you are just shocked at the bill, you had made an assumption that the figure quoted included everything but I guess you asked what was her fee and her fee is probably the 1400 but she should have pointed out to you that it did not include VAT or any other legal costs which she has no control over. Solicitors tend to make assumptions too - that the non legal client will automatically know that there are other unknown costs. This is why it is much better if solicitors give a written estimate of the fees and vat and outlays involved in advance.

By the way a fee of 1400 for a remortgage and transfer sounds very reasonable.

I don't know about the legalities of her taking her fees from the mortgage cheque, my solicitor always does this and I have no problem with this.
 
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So the moral of the story is to look for a Section 68 off the solicitor at the start of any undertakings and make sure it gets updated if/when they change.
 
I'm no expert, but I'd have thought €1400 seems about right....IF it is a straight forward move from one bank to another. The only expertise I have is to compare it to what I paid about 5 years ago & we paid €1000 (all in).

Obviously, if there was extra work or the tranfers was complicated for some reason, then you would be charged more, but, personally, I think that should have been made clear to you.

I should add - my solicior had dealt with the purchase of our house a few years earlier so she may have had some of the work done already & may not have taken as long as a newbie customer.
 
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mf1 said:
I am sick to the back teeth of casual callers asking for an all in quote when they have not got the first clue of (a) what they are talking about and (b) what is involved. I basically will not quote anymore unless it is to a known client who has some grasp of the work involved in a transaction and who does not expect me to subsidise their dealings.

mf
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Is that not the nature of being in business, people who are not legally trained seeking advice and a cost for this advice? Anyone can accept that there is a hugh disparity in the fees charged by solicitors in this country today, so I cannot see anything wrong in ringing up and seeking a quote. The last house purchase I completed I got quotes from €800 + vat + outlays to €2200 + vat + outlays.
 
mf1 said:
Or because clients choose not to hear? Anything? Many of my clients are deaf, deaf, and deaf.

mf
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Why do you feel the need to nearly always jump to the defense of fellow professionals?

Do you accept that some solicitors are bad at their jobs and do over charge?
 
ballaboy said:
I understand the law Society requires a Solicitor to give an estimate in writting of the cost of any assignement before they take it on,and it is strictly enforced
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Yes non compliant solicitors are taken to Blackhall Place for a flogging!
 
Many solicitors assume, if it's your second or subsequent property related transaction, that you will know that quotes are usually ex-VAT and outlays unless otherwise specified. It's evidently a dangerous assumption!

My solicitor is also cagey about quoting for conveyancing, because transactions can be so varied. Some will be totally straightforward, others can be horrendous, and often as a client you don't really know which is which - not at the outset, anyway.

@OP: I think asking for a breakdown of the bill is perfectly reasonable (and I'd ask for a breakdown of the whole bill rather than "the increase"), and I'd do that before instigating anything more confrontational. You may find the total is self-explanatory, but either way it gives you the information to decide what, if anything, to do next.
 
Towger said:
So the moral of the story is to look for a Section 68 off the solicitor at the start of any undertakings and make sure it gets updated if/when they change.
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Section 68 letters are a waste of time. Solicitors are allowed to send out a Law Society waffle based letter which talks about the complexities of this and that and the end of the letter tells you they can't possibly know how much it will all cost in the end. So long as they give you that letter (it's the same one for everybody) then they are covered and you have no comeback when you get a massive bill.

I understand what mf1 says about people holding important information back but he also clearly knows all the possible pitfalls there are out there so as matthepac suggests-a checklist containing these pitaflls for the potential customer to fill out for the basic services (will, probate, conveyances etc.) would seem a good compromise.

The whole system here still needs to head in the direction of England and Wales....[broken link removed]

Over there they must at least give an estimate and keep in touch with costs as they escalate. My family has had enough dealing with enough solicitors to know that once the waffley section 68 letter goes out, the next time you hear about fees is when they have the bill for you. No contact about incurred costs whatsoever and then a "you owe us 8,000" but we haven't actually achieved what we set out to do. Not all sloicitors are honourable, most are, but not all. My current solicitor reckons the above crowd are "crooks" (his word, not mine) for attempting to charge so much for so little. One file was for 3k with very little done, another file was for 1.5k with much more done so my current solicitor could see straight away it didn't add up, literally.

You need to really be assertive when dealing with a solicitor unless you have reason to trust them (good past experiences with them or very reliable personal recommendations etc.).Just trusting a solicitor or firm of solicitors is a big mistake. I've seen some incredibly sloppy work by them (wrong names on civil bills and summonses etc. making them invalid).
 
I think we paid about 1000 when we bought our house for legal fees but then 3 years later we got a cheque from the solicitor for 174 or something like that and a letter saying they had found having gone through the accounts that we were due this amount in our favour. Woohoo
 
murphaph said:
You need to really be assertive when dealing with a solicitor unless you have reason to trust them (good past experiences with them or very reliable personal recommendations etc.).Just trusting a solicitor or firm of solicitors is a big mistake. I've seen some incredibly sloppy work by them (wrong names on civil bills and summonses etc. making them invalid).
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The problem is that alot of people are concerned by one thing only and that is price. There is no excuse for overcharging but a fair price for a good job should be every person's ideal.
Solicitors are their own worst enemies in this regard. Clients don't always see the work that needs to be done. A bill sent out with "Professional fee 1,400" is pretty useless from the clients point of view. As a profession we need to get better at explaining what we actually do.
 
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