Original Deeds lost/mislaid, what happens now ?

Hi All,

Looking for views from all here.

We are currently trying to buy a house.
Thought we where close to the finishing line, but received word from our solictor this morning, that the sellers do not have the original title deeds to the property. This problem dates back to the previous owners.
Current owners bought the house, which was derelict at the time about 8/9 years ago. Im presuming they didnt need finance at that time, or maybe the bank where more forgiving back then.
They have what is called a memorial of the deeds , which may or may not satisfy our lender. Currently, they are trying to come up with something stronger before we approach our bank.
Has anyone come across this before ?

Could this possible drag on for ages.

Obviously the sellers are sweating now, but can this be resolved in a timely manner, or are we facing a tough decision to pull out of the sale.
Obviously, if we cant get finance the house is unsellable.

Any experience in this sort of thing would be very very helpful.

Lots of ways to sort this out, most of which will involve the vendors paying for it. Hang tough and do not accept anything less than a marketable title as the day you buy is the day you sell- ie when you go to sell you do not want to have the same problem.

If only one deed is lost it is not a huge issue.

For eg, a title insurance bond ( not my preference).

Or a memorialised indenture ( assuming only one deed lost and the rest are available and in good order, maps show property clearly and root of title is good) plus insurance bond.

Or the all catch saver, and maybe necessary depending on what county you are in- a First Registration. I'd probably be pushing for this if in this situation, Vendor to pay the costs.

What county is the property in?

Thanks for the detailed reply. I must admit some of the lingo is over my head a bit.

The cottage used to be an old railway cottage, originally built in 1913. Has been restored beautifully i may add about 8 years ago.
Property is located in North Tipperary.
I have been advised just this afternoon, that current owners did indeed need finance to purchase, but hey what the banks did then and what they do now, is a whole different ball game.

Our solictor has advised we do not sign contracts until this is solved.
Which i concur strongly.
House cant go anywhere I'm presuming for the moment.
So thanks for the words of encouragment.

We have plugged alot of money into this already, with valuation & survey etc.. so not prepared to wipe our hands just yet.
The waiting and not knowing is the killer.

But im prepared now to deal with this head on.

Compulsory registration is coming to Tipperary from December of this year. Basically this means that this properties title is Registry of Deeds and must be converted to Land Registry for any sale or mortgage after December.

I would strongly advise you to insist that the Vendor pay for an application for First Registration- I'm sure your solicitor will also.

That doesn't mean you should walk away- this is an application which will perfect the title- but you should make sure you aren't the one paying for it.

will do...

Feel much better armed now at this point.

Its a terror, when you know nothing about all this stuff.

Just wanted to update this thread, if i may.

We have come to an agreement regarding the deeds of the house. The vendors have agreed to discount the house in question by € 850.00 ( amount needed for first registration on the property )
Our solictor has advised us, that the sale will need to be completed and in our names in full by the 31st Dec, or else the vendors will have to complete the registration themselves, in order to sell the property.

Another question if I may.

Our solictor has written into the contract, that it will become null and void, if the bank revoke the draw down cheque for any reason.
Also that the completion sale needs to take place before the 31st of Dec.
We signed contracts on the 24th of November , but the vendors have not signed theirs yet.. is a wait of a few days normal, i would have thought they should sign fairly quickly after us.

Also I noticed this morning, that the property has been renewed on Daft on the 27th of November and has gone from " sale agreed " to " for sale " again..
The auctioneer we have been dealing with has said he knows nothing about the change of status. Can daft change the status on propertys willy nilly ?
For some reason i can smell a rat somewhere, and now that we have signed, we feel slightly uncomfortable.

Called our solictor and she has stated that she is still waiting for vendors solictor to come back to her..

Advice if possible.. maybe im being paranoid.

fizzgig said:

Advice if possible.. maybe im being paranoid.

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Maybe you're not - just acting normal. I personally would have your solicitor contact the vendor's solicitors requesting that the vendor's are messing about and you want confirmation that the sale is now conditional.

As a matter of interest is the same agent acting foir the vendor on Daft ??

It is the same agent alright. When we called him, he just told us to refer to his own website and not daft, as he didnt know anything about the " for sale " reappearing.
This same agent has been hounding us & our solictor for updates for the past month, when he was well aware that the fault or faultly deed issue lay with the vendors. But today, he said he was no longer getting involved and was going to let the solictors get on with things.. which is why i think he may be withholding some info..
Will call my solictor again and see can we get an answer.. Something may a miss.

Call them on it. Ask your solicitor to telephone the other solicitor and ask outright why contracts are not signed and when they will be signed. This is the only way of finding out. It's the first thing I'd do if I were acting for you.

If the answer is not an answer, give them a time limit ( short) or pull out. The budget is coming up wed week- it is possible this may affect you adversely, I would not like to be hanging before the budget not knowing either way. Contracts to be signed pre-budget would be my opinion.

fizzgig said:

...
We have come to an agreement regarding the deeds of the house. The vendors have agreed to discount the house in question by € 850.00 ( amount needed for first registration on the property )...

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...if nothing is wrong with the title. If there are defects that turn up afterwards, the costs could escalate rapidly. Have they also given an undertaking to deal with any Land Registry Rulings that may issue, at their own cost?
Have they given an affidavit that the deeds are not pledged as security for a loan with anyone? Without that I wouldn't consider closing, as it is something the Land Registry will require.

Thanks to all for taking time out to answer.
It was down to this thead alone that we found out about first registration
We have an affidavit regarding the security, but hadnt come across the Land Registry Rulings so far - will enquire more about this.
Our solicitor hadnt heard much about first registration to date, but she is looking into it a little more now.

Vendors solicitor have a problem about the proviso regarding finance from the bank in the contract.. i cant see why, as if we dont get the finance, we cant buy the property anyway. Plus the more they delay, the more chance that will happen.

Should we contact the vendors directly ?
Something is getting lost in translation somewhere.

I have asked our solicitor to call them today and explain why they are holding this up, seeing as they have been hounding us to sign for many weeks now. Is it not in their interest to move on this now.
We are commited buyers, but they seem to making a mockery now.

fizzgig said:

Vendors solicitor have a problem about the proviso regarding finance from the bank in the contract.. i cant see why, as if we dont get the finance, we cant buy the property anyway.

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I note you have a clause that protects you on this, (contract null and void if drawn down check is withdrawn.) In the recent past it seems it wasn't common practice to have a mortgage clause. This meant that without it you were stumped if the bank wouldn't give you the mortgage but you had signed the contracts. It actually means that without such a condition that you would still owe for the house without having the money.

You are not being paranoid about anything, the more questions you ask the better. You are the buyer and you need to be very very careful. Caveat emptor.

We are at the point of pulling out of this sale today.
After months of wrangling with the vendors and our lender.

Our solicitor thinks something very stange is happening.
With the house reappearing on daft ( renewed again just this morning )
This could be a very underhanded tactic from him to frighten us maybe ?
Surely he has complete and total access to his ads on daft.ie.
Has denied he was involved in this.

Our solicitor has faxed them just now, to explain why they havent signed. or given a completion date. Only today did the vendors solictor explain they are in a chain and need to complete both transactions on the same day.
Something never explained to our solictor before today even.
She thinks they could be stalling... but unless they complete before close of 2009, they cant sell on unless they do first registration themsleves.
We will not wait for this to happen - as it could take months.

Our lender have advised that we can draw down the mortage cheque next week, if everything is ready to go.. but now we are faced with more uphill struggle

This is currently a buyer's market. Simple as that. Either the vendor wants to sell or doesn't. Perhaps he is living in Cloud Cookoo land where he thinks he might get more. After close of business today your offer should decline 15% and then more and then more. You have placed yourself through a lot of hasstle and the vendor is trying to force you into a corner. Off you go and find another property which simply is not so arduous.

someone is living in a fantasy world anyway.
We have secured mortgage approval in a very tough climate, mainly due to a large deposit. We feel a red carpet might be rolled out for us somewhere else. With this sale, its just a constant battle ground.
Surely at this stage they can see we are committed buyers, as we could have walked away when the whole deed issue arose. But we worked with them to make it still possible for them to sell the property.

Im at my wits end at this stage.

Why have none of the professionals in this country moved with the times.
Are we always going to be so slow on the uptake.
The auctioneer has used every tactic in the book to hurry this is on - even suggested our solictor was not qualified a few weeks ago !!!

Is it supposed to be this hard to buy a small house.

Could the current vendors insist they have the same clause in their contract for the house they want to move to ? Why cant it be that simple ?

fizzgig said:

Could the current vendors insist they have the same clause in their contract for the house they want to move to ? Why cant it be that simple ?

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That's not your problem. It's theirs. Personally I really do think it is time to look elsewhere.

mercman said:

That's not your problem. It's theirs. Personally I really do think it is time to look elsewhere.

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Wont we have the same problem with this clause in another purchase ?

Fizzgog I would advise you to hold on to one thought- do you want this house or not? If you want the house put the feelings ( understandable frustration and annoyance and a bit of hurt pride) to one side and just work to get the house. If you let the feelings get to you the whole process gets tainted for you, and somehow that can permeate through to your feelings for the house.

I understand from you that the vendors want to buy another house and close the sale of this to you and the purchase of the other house on the same day. They don't want a conditional contract as they could be caught on their purchase if you can't get your loan cheque.

A bit of straight talking now will sort it out. You want the house, they want to sell, they want to buy. Get the title issues sorted out, agreement on how to deal with it on closing and then deal with the closing.

Its entirely possible for you to sign a contract and close within a few days- you could just draw down your loan cheque a week early and THEN sign an unconditional contract, close a few days later. Get the agreement in place. Sure you risk a bit of interest on the loan cheque if the vendors subsequently won't sign but if they agree all of this in advance it is unlikely they won't go ahead.

It's time to talk now and sort it out or walk away. Just don't let it get to you.

Thanks Vanilla.

We have fought a very long hard battle already for this house.
Have jumped many many hoops for our lender, and would have thought some sort of trust would come into play regarding the purchase at this point in the game.
We love the flipping house, which is why it feels so gut wrenching right about now.

You are saying we could sign a contract with this finance clause removed, then draw down cheque, then sign another contract ?