There's an indecon report that covers the general information. Link
Ray Burke cut the State’s share in offshore oil and gas from 50% to zero and abolishing royalties. We get nothing.
There's an indecon report that covers the general information. Link
Bertie reduced the tax rate for the profits made from the sale of these resources from 50% to 25%. But then also introduced breaks into the tax system so that there is a 100% write off of investment before they would pay any tax. This includes the cost of exploration, drilling, etc, but also allows companies to put upfront the cost of closing the rigs too all before they declare a profit.
There's an indecon report that covers the general information. Link
There is too much potential to write off as a cost without close scutiny so that not even a cent of tax is paid.
There's an indecon report that covers the general information. Link
There's unlikely to be any immediate or even short term jobs benefit as the skills and knowledge don't exist here yet.
There's some a benefit to having some oil and refined and processed here so that we aren't at the end of the european pipe. Does that equate to a more standard contract for exploration? Probably not.
I know I have dissected your post, and tried to make comments about what I think is correct and what isn't. I am certainly not trying to be insulting, and apologise if I am. QUOTE]
No, I don't think you were insulting at all and it's good to talk over the points. However, I may be wrong, but the only areas where we disagreed was:
1. 25% tax on profits and my point that they can write off the entire start up and shut down costs off the taxable profits. I presume we don't disagree that they can, as this is part of the deal. I'm also not arguing that this isn't a "cost" either. But, my understanding is that the deal isn't specific enough as to the type and nature of costs that can be used to avoid tax. In my opinion it leaves too much room for some grey accounting that will always be offset as set up costs. This could be training, IT training, relocation costs for staff, and so on. The example of the film industry is just one to show that people can be creative with accounting to demonstrate they never make a profit and pay a tax.
2. The skills. I was largely talking short to medium term. You're right that Terminal 2 used Irish labour, but this is different. Vastly different. We have the engineers for civil engineering, we have the trades. We don't have the Petrochemical engineers or the fitters, electricians, divers, welders, operators. We have limited resources for helicopters of sufficient size to get people to and from a rig. We don't have the paramedic/emergency response expertise needed to work on a rig. It's hugely specialised and it will take a long time before we have a strong Irish workforce who can service the industry. Not just direct labour, but also suppliers and contractors to the industry. There are only a few contractors who could provide sufficient labour. It will take longer than just the plant being finished before we will be able to rely on local labour. In a lot of cases we may never be able to rely on local labour because it will take so long to get the skills up to an adequate level.
As I say in a later post, in my opinion it's a gamble. I don't think that there's anything incorrect in my posts, where we disagree is our own opinions of the unknowns. My personal opinion is that we gave too much away in haste.
I'm not anti oil or oil companies the opposite in fact seeing as I've owed my early career to them and the mining industry. I said, also in a later post, I understand that we had make it attractive for companies to explore here. None of that we disagree on.
It's a very good deal for the oil companies. There's just too much of a grey area to allow for some creative accounting (who knows, maybe this is one set of accountants we can trust to not exploit a loop hole) so that profits are not paid for a very long time. Also, unlike any other industry, I'm just not sure that the direct labour it brings will be as big a benefit as other industries and I'm not sure the secondary services and suppliers will be sufficient enough a boost to make back the "lost tax".
1. 25% tax on profits and my point that they can write off the entire start up and shut down costs off the taxable profits. I presume we don't disagree that they can, as this is part of the deal. I'm also not arguing that this isn't a "cost" either. But, my understanding is that the deal isn't specific enough as to the type and nature of costs that can be used to avoid tax. In my opinion it leaves too much room for some grey accounting that will always be offset as set up costs. This could be training, IT training, relocation costs for staff, and so on. The example of the film industry is just one to show that people can be creative with accounting to demonstrate they never make a profit and pay a tax.
A good friend made this exact point to me, and I couldn't persuade her otherwise. But I will try to be persuasive so here.
The reason that oil and gas companies will declare profits truthfully is that;
1/. They are mostly companies owned by shareholders. If you don't have profits your market share falls drastically.
2/. There is independent regulation around declaring false values on the stock market, and also every country has its own tax fraud team. I can't imagine there is too much tax fraud in the gas and oil industry that goes unnoticed.
3/. There is enormous effort by these companies to protect their name. Their name is an extremely valuable asset. They won't risk that by committing fraud. For example, it is actually cheaper for them to spend millons on protecting the environment than to pollute it. Last year the oil spill in The Gulf of Mexico almost finished BP as a company. They were very nearly bought over.
4/. A corporation is full of people who come and go. Some have loyalty to the corporation, other don't. Nobody comes in and commits fraud on behalf of the a corporation when they know they could find themselves individually criminally liable.
Companies will take advantage and write off as much tax as it should. But the profits are still enormous. And so is the return to the taxpayer.
2. The skills. I was largely talking short to medium term. You're right that Terminal 2 used Irish labour, but this is different. Vastly different. We have the engineers for civil engineering, we have the trades. We don't have the Petrochemical engineers or the fitters, electricians, divers, welders, operators. We have limited resources for helicopters of sufficient size to get people to and from a rig. We don't have the paramedic/emergency response expertise needed to work on a rig. It's hugely specialised and it will take a long time before we have a strong Irish workforce who can service the industry. Not just direct labour, but also suppliers and contractors to the industry. There are only a few contractors who could provide sufficient labour. It will take longer than just the plant being finished before we will be able to rely on local labour. In a lot of cases we may never be able to rely on local labour because it will take so long to get the skills up to an adequate level.
I only mentioned Terminal 2 at Dublin airport as a reference to put the Corrib Gas Terminal in perspective. At that time 1,500 people were working at the gas terminal. Some people at the gas terminal were broadcasting that it was the biggest construction site in the country. It was enormous, but it wasn't quite the biggest.
With relation to skilled workers and long term jobs, in my opinion what happens is that because the gas and oil industry is still so very small in Ireland, these companies bring in experienced professionals from abroad for start up. But over the lifetime of the field, local people tend to get more and more of the job opportunities. Now that is just my opinion, and other people will say otherwise.
Those companies aren't as reluctant to explore as you'd think and aren't as relunctant to invest as much money as necessary as you'd think. If it was hinted that Mars could contain oil, we'd be there already.
Hi One,
Whilst I agree that these oil companies would not benefit over the long term from engaging in tax fraud, I think they use every trick in the book to reduce their tax bill, which, once legal they are quite entitled to do.
However, would it not be far easier and transparent to simply charge a fixed % of the world crude price of oil as a tax on each barrel of oil extracted (off the top - no deductions) and remove corporation tax for them entirely? This would ensure an index-linked source of revenue for the taxpayer and also provide the oil co with a guaranteed fixed cost after which they keep the remainder. At least then as taxpayers we know we are getting something for every barrel produced.
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