Official Languages Act 2003

Re: irish

Beware of the tyranny of the majority.

From Serendipity.li:

Mostly this Serendipity website is a libertarian, anti-fascist, anti-war, anti-Zionist and anti-prison-planet website, asserting the natural right of people everywhere to pursue their lives, interests and pleasures free from harmful childhood conditioning, from exploitation and domination by covert political and economic forces which seek to enslave them and from repressive authoritarian governments, rapacious capitalist corporations, mendacious religious organizations, fraudulent international bankers and the unholy alliance among all of these which works to deprive the common people of all countries of their freedom, health, happiness and the full realization of their spiritual potential.

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Phew! :eek

Re: irish

Why Anti-Zionist? That's a bit like Anti-Gaelic or Anti-unionist?!

Re: irish

I don't know. I'm just quoting what it says on the site in question.

Re: irish

To all intents and purposes, the Irish language is dead.

When I say that RTE is a monopoly, I mean subsidised by TV licence payers and Irish taxpayers. If it did not have to play as much Irish as it does, then it would not.

Someone said we cannot speak our own language, I do, it is English and thank God it is our main national language, as well as being the main international world-wide language of business , media and the arts etc.

After many decades living in Ireland, I have never heard a word of Irish outside school or RTE. Talk about it being a waste of money.

Re: irish

I don't waste time trying to convince people of the importance of the language, and I'm not going to do it now, each to their own and all that.

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The point, TirOileain, is that you are not prepared to leave "each to their own" - you advocate *forcing* your beliefs on others.

For you, the Irish Language is obviously important. Perhaps it's an important part of your identity, or (like me) you find beauty in the literature and music.

No-one could justifiably interfere with your right to speak the language, and indeed the society you live in goes further than that - it subsidizes and encourages your interest through tax breaks and grants.

However, there are millions of people on this Island for whom the Irish language forms no part of their identity. They don't speak a word of the language, and despite what some might think, they're just as "Irish" as you.

If, for whatever reason, you can't pass an Irish Language exam, you're prevented from working as a Teacher, from joining the Civil Service, from attending most of the (state-subsidized) Universities.
When you sit State exams, you're given less marks than an Irish speaker who provides exactly the same answers. Until very recently, you were barred from becoming a member of the Police force.

So, in a country where one adult in five lacks functional literacy skills, our schools spend an unquantified time and expense teaching a language which the vast majority of students will never hear, or use, during their adult lives.

if you want to speak Irish, and want your children to learn Irish, that's wonderful for you - good luck to you. You're perfectly free to speak it day and night, free from discrimination.

It's a shame, however, that the Irish Language lobby won't advocate that others have the same rights.

-- James

Re: irish

The point, TirOileain, is that you are not prepared to leave "each to their own" - you advocate *forcing* your beliefs on others.

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?????? Hi Rev Flynn, I do not *force* any beliefs on anybody, please tell me where I gave that impression so I can clarify, otherwise please do not make these statements. My personal enjoyment of the language comes mainly from talking to Irish speakers anywhere from An Cheathrú Rua to Galway city...

and despite what some might think, they're just as "Irish" as you.

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Hope that wasn't directed at me, because I don't think I mentioned anything about Irish identity?

Re: irish

Yeah - I can't see where the reationale for some of those rebuttals directed at TirOileain came from either...

Re: irish

After many decades living in Ireland, I have never heard a word of Irish outside school or RTE.

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I was pleasantly surprised during a week spent in Galway a few years ago to find Irish being spoken on the streets & in the restaurants on a daily basis.

Re: irish

By the way - anybody who has strong views on the [broken link removed] is [broken link removed] to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs on the matter. There were notices in the national press yesterday to this effect too.

submissions

Not surprised to see the "submissions" were nearly all in Irish by groups such as Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge. They mustn't be able to believe their luck that this thing is being rammed down our throats whether we like it or not. Take the following excerpt from one of the english submissions: " Basically, all Irish people would love to be able to converse in their native tongue. Why? Because it's our identity, our culture, our heritage, it says everything about us, it is part of our make up and we should all strive to maintain the Irish language, a European language. "

Yep, absolutely TYPICAL of the mindset of these people. Statements being depicted as fact ("all Irish people") and "the Irish language" - a European language. Get real!

Re: submissions

Not surprised to see the "submissions" were nearly all in Irish by groups such as Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge.

I'm not sure what's with the presumably ironic/sarcastic quotes around the word "submission" but I agree - it's not in the least bit surprising that submissions would come from individuals or groups with strong views on the matter. Of course there's nothing stopping you or other individuals or groups who have a contrary view on the matter making your own submission if you want.

Re: irish

Hi TirOileain,

I didn't mean to offend, and can see that some of my posting was clumsily structured - I'm arguing against the mindset of the Irish Language Lobby in general, and not at you personally - I sincerely apologise if offense was inadvertantly caused.

Right, on to the debate :

I'm not arguing against the beauty of the language, nor anyone's right to speak it, I'm arguing against the imposition of the language on those for whom it is *not* a part of their identity.

You can't seriously argue that the Irish language is essential today - it's entirely possible to live your entire life here without needing to speak a word of it. The same can't be said of other subjects - Math, for example. Despite this, we as a society spend countless billions every year forcing it on every school-going child. We also construct a wasteful, artificial structure of grants and tax-breaks to subsidise those who can speak it, to the consequent disadvantage of those who can't.

I'm simply arguing that each citizen of the state should be free to chose whether the language is important to them or not, and isn't discriminated against if they can't speak it, or choose not to speak it.

So, if you do not want to force your beliefs on anyone, would you therefore advocate the elimination of those structures of the state which discriminate against non-Irish speakers, like for example, the fact that a competent and qualified German and Geography teacher can't get a job in Ireland if they don't speak Irish?

Regards,
James

act

In the public sector organisation that I work in most people are happy to have a situation whereby if someone requests to deal in Irish they will be accomodated. Before we got the draft details of how the Act would be imposed, the general consensus was that we would be happy to, say, have a small stock of Cheques printed in Irish in order that they could be used as and when required. So, the stock of 20 Irish cheques and 20000 English cheques would not have been a problem. It's the requirement that everything we print, right down to folders and fax cover sheets, yes I jest not, that makes this Act outrageous. And the requirement that Irish must be "as prominent" or "more prominent" than English but not the other way around is blatently insulting to the majority of English speaking Irish people.

Re: act

It's the requirement that everything we print, right down to folders and fax cover sheets, yes I jest not, that makes this Act outrageous. And the requirement that Irish must be "as prominent" or "more prominent" than English but not the other way around is blatently insulting to the majority of English speaking Irish people.

Have you made or do you plan to make a formal submission to this effect? I like to think that AAM is popular and widely known but I wouldn't depend on the powers that be to be monitoring AAM for opinions on this issue.

submissions

Clubman you are probably right,and I know you disagree with my opinion, but I'm ashamed to say I have no faith in any submission that I might make having any effect. Besides, isin't the area of AAM that we are currently in entitled "Letting of Steam"?! That's all I'm doing!

Re: submissions

and I know you disagree with my opinion

How do you "know" that given that I have disagreed with neither your opinion on the substantive matter nor your opinion on the submission process? :\ To be honest, as it happens, I don't really have strong opinions on either matter but would assume that the most appropriate way to voice an opinion on the act would be to make a formal submission. That's certainly what I would do if I had strong opinions on the matter one way or another.

Besides, isin't the area of AAM that we are currently in entitled "Letting of Steam"?! That's all I'm doing!

Indeed - but that doesn't mean that constructive suggestions, such as I would consider my own to be, cannot be expressed as well. Obviously people are free to heed them or not as they see fit. It just seems a bit pointless to me for people to moan about issues while ignoring possible constructive avenues of redress or feedback.

Re: irish

Hi James,

Okay, I wouldn't disagree that there is a lot of money wasted on Irish (as well as on loads of other things in this country). I'm not sure where you get the countless billions from though, that sounds a bit much!!!

Irish is not essential today. You might be able to say the same thing about arts, history, French etc. I understand your point as it is true that most people come out of the education system never speaking or wanting to speak the language again. The only point that I would make is that if there were no Irish taught in the education system, I would have been denied the chance to learn it at a young age, and almost certainly would not speak it now. My guess is that tens of thousands of people feel the same way and have benefitted from it. Many who would have hated Irish in school.

tax-breaks to subsidise those who can speak it

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Some tax-breaks often benefit those who can't speak it as well. You may be aware that there are many companies in "Gaeltacht" areas given tax-breaks by Údarás na Gaeltachta, where under strict rules the employees are supposed to speak Irish but can't or don't... Bit of a farce really..

the fact that a competent and qualified German and Geography teacher can't get a job in Ireland if they don't speak Irish?

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I agree with you. Remember, The majority of Irish speakers are not part of some Gaelic Mullah (a term coined by your good reverened self after failing your NCT!!!) No, but seriously I agree with a lot of what you're saying...

Re: irish

You may be aware that there are many companies in "Gaeltacht" areas given tax-breaks by Údarás na Gaeltachta, where under strict rules the employees are supposed to speak Irish but can't or don't... Bit of a farce really..

Bit of tax evasion is more like it presumably? :\ If this is happening then presumably the rules or their application are not strict enough after all?

Re: irish

I don't understand an word of Irish, (well apart from 'craic' and 'chucky ah lar' - or whatever) I wasn't educated in Ireland. I'm glad I wasn't forced to learn it. I did have to do a few years of French, which I absolutely hated, and dropped at the first opportunity.

I've never needed to use the language in the last ten years of living in Ireland.

Why not replace it with Esperanto?

Re: irish

I meant to phrase that

"where strictly speaking, under rules, employees are supposed to speak Irish"

Tax evasion, maybe, I don't really the exact details...