Obeying speed limits

Drove North and back on Saturday and West and back on Sunday (starting from Dublin). Given the week that was in it and that both of the licence holders who were my passengers on Saturday have penalty points (in each case received in an urban location for speed limit + 4mph), decided to rigidly adhere to speed limits.

Both the N/M1 and the N/M4 have a lot of roadworks on them at present so that explains many of the speed variations on the way. However, it is very obvious that on the N4 the reduced limits tend to start way before the roadworks which makes the job of obeying them even more challenging.

What strikes me is that it requires the hardest neck not to break the law. Other drivers simply can't conceive why you're going so slowly and the tailgating and impetuous overtaking would be enough to force down the right foot of the bravest law-abider. (Although neither the N4 nor N1 drivers could quite match the N11 drivers I was repeatedly flashed by on Thursday evening - the day of most of the Meath funerals - on my way from Dublin to Bray and back.)

It's more clear to me now than ever before that the vast majority of drivers simply will not change their driving habits out of a sense of civic duty or respect for the safety of others so the issue must be enforcement.

Is it simply the case that people do not feel there is any realistic chance of being caught? Is there any covert policing? (There certainly doesn't seem to be any overt policing - saw just one Garda car on the approx. 320 miles I drove in the Republic....and it overtook me travelling at least 30kph over the speed limit.)

Would there be any political advantage to a government which delivered the level of traffic policing required to make speeding impossible? Or would there be the usual moan that the police should spend their time chasing real criminals?

oysterman said:

Is there any covert policing? (There certainly doesn't seem to be any overt policing

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Two weekends ago there was an announcement of yet another "crackdown" by the Gardai on speeding and so on on the countries roads for the weekend.

3 from my family drove that weekend. One from Dublin to Galway, and back. One from Galway to Derry, and back. And myself, from Dublin to Derry and back. Total milage of just over 1000 for the weekend.

In all that time, only one Garda car was seen. And it was pulling over a boy racer down from the north on the M1 southbound who wouldn't incur any penalty anyway.

Evidentially, there should never be any expectation that you're going to get caught for speeding in this country any more.

And this is especially the case on non-dualcarriageway or non-motorway roads where people speed up even more to "make up time" on roads that aren't designed for higher speeds, but people believe they "know the roads" better.

No one ever considers the element of surprise any more.

Oysterman, are you serious? Surely you don't believe that speed checks & penalty points are anything more than a handy way of generating revenue?

They are not preventing the carnage on the roads, as recent unfortunate events sadly show.

The whole sorry state of affairs needs to be addressed if we have any hope of improving road safety. The current system is doing little more than breading contempt (and generating revenue).
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oysterman said:

Drove North and back on Saturday and West and back on Sunday (starting from Dublin). Given the week that was in it and that both of the licence holders who were my passengers on Saturday have penalty points (in each case received in an urban location for speed limit + 4mph), decided to rigidly adhere to speed limits.

Both the N/M1 and the N/M4 have a lot of roadworks on them at present so that explains many of the speed variations on the way. However, it is very obvious that on the N4 the reduced limits tend to start way before the roadworks which makes the job of obeying them even more challenging.

What strikes me is that it requires the hardest neck not to break the law.

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IMHO, it is precisely this kind of inconsistent and in some cases badly signalled speed limit, compounded with excessive enforcement in fish-in-a-barrel locations (UCD Flyover Syndrome) which cause people to lose faith in the system.

There are still numerous examples of inappropriately low speed limits set by county councils - the N4 roadworks above is a good case in point; 100kph on a motorway (M50 to Ballinteer) because of a curve and a breeze; 80mph on the N11 in what is a 100kph rated road according to the NRA.

If the people setting the limits respected the intelligence of road users, then road users might respect the limits.

You should not have to spend the whole time looking for small speed signs. The speed limit should be obvious from the size of the road, crash barriers indicating motorway, for example, with exceptions for roadworks or for tight curves signposted clearly.

County Council set speed limits - not safety authority hence some ridiculous speed limits.

Road works caused by county councils cause road accidents including 5 students on a bus in Meath in the last week.

County Council use passenger vehicles to sweep away excess chippings on poorly resurfaced roads.

I hope you weren't the guy travelling at 48mph on the N4 in a 62mph zone yesterday that was delaying me and others getting back to Dublin!

Feel considerable contempt for County Council roads sections at the moment after the dangerous condition they left the road in outside the home place after doing some half-arsed resurfacing work - absolutely no grip on the road and unless you slow down to a walking pace you are in danger of departing from the road.

I'd like to see Prime Time follow the Kildare County Counsellors and see how many of them obey the speed limit thaty they themselves imposed on the Naas Dual Carriageway. If more than half of them do I'll give a hundred quid to charity.

Has any Garda car on a routine drive (not in a chase or en-route to an emergency) ever obeyed the speed limit on the Naas Dual Carriageway since the recent limit change?

Has any Judge ever obeyed the limit on the Naas dual Carriageway since the recent limit change?

Has any TD or ministers car ever obeyed the limit on the Naas dual Carriageway since the recent limit change?

Drunk TD's driving in the wrong direction don't count.

-Rd

The state of some of the roads at the moment. The big companies should be fined if they leave the road they are working on not resurfaced in good condition. These potholes could cause blowouts that then cause accidents. In america the big companies are fined if they are not left perfect. I think some of them leave them in such a bad state so they have to resurface it for overtime at night. The road i drive to and from work i must be avoiding amount 10 potholes only because i know where they are. These are causing tracking to be of on cars and wrecking are tyres also. And then we fail NCT because of this.

Dipole said:

I hope you weren't the guy travelling at 48mph on the N4 in a 62mph zone yesterday that was delaying me and others getting back to Dublin!

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Not a chance - it was bad enough having to obey the limits (particularly when the 50kph kicks in literally miles before the associated roadworks) without adding to my own misery.

Oysterman, are you serious? Surely you don't believe that speed checks & penalty points are anything more than a handy way of generating revenue?

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Oddly enough I don't have any great difficulty with fines. If a culture of compliance is ever going to be developed, there will have to be a massive increase in the number of fines levied. That's obviously going to raise a load of revenue. While many of the current speed limits lack coherence, I can't see how this can be used as an argument to obey them on a selective basis. There will always be some idiot who thinks he knows the road better than me and that it's perfectly safe for him to drive 20 or 30 or 50 kph abve the speed limit. If we tolerate that form of laissez-faire thinking, no limits will be obeyed.

What I detest more than people driving 20-30kph over the limit, is people tailgating and people overtaking on blind corners and other such manoeuvres.

Do these people ever get fined, or receive penality points?

daltonr said:

I'd like to see Prime Time follow the Kildare County Counsellors and see how many of them obey the speed limit thaty they themselves imposed on the Naas Dual Carriageway.

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In fairness to KCC and their counsellors and staff the daft speed limits on the dualler were imposed by the NRA many months prior to the commencement of the works. Now that the construction work on the dualler between Johnstown and Rathcoole has begun in earnest I think 45-50mph (certainly not 60 mph) is the correct speed for narrow lanes like this.

They also have speed flashers which tell you the speed your travelling at.(although I have my doubts about the calibration of the first one travelling north).

This project seems to be progressing at breathtaking speed. I for one am very impressed.

ajapale

AJ, the NRA "requested" the speed. It was within Kildare Co. Co. gift to say no, not until it's sane to have speeds that low. And I think it's still an unsuitable speed for most of that road when you consider the roads that have 100kph limits.

80kph would be more sensible for the Naas road. And is suspect that is the speed our hero's in Kildare Co. Co. drive. Not to mention the others on my list.

Agree with you about the speed that work is progressing at.

-Rd

I dont think the points system is a deterrant anymore. I am not a speed demon but I do break the speed limit fairly often (e.g. 40mph in 30mph limit etc) - who doesn't ? I never ever drive over 70mph even on the motorway. Luckily, I have never been involved in an accident but I also haven't received a penalty point yet and I dont know too many people that have got them. I think I would find it very very hard to get 12 points in 2 years. I would have to go completely nuts altogether and even then it would be difficult because I hardly ever see the Gardai. How many people have actually received 12 points ? Not many in comparison to the lunatic drivers I see on the road every day.

What is the go with boy racers ? How do they not realise how rediculous they are ?

Teabag said:

I dont think the points system is a deterrant anymore. I am not a speed demon but I do break the speed limit fairly often (e.g. 40mph in 30mph limit etc) - who doesn't ? I never ever drive over 70mph even on the motorway. Luckily, I have never been involved in an accident but I also haven't received a penalty point yet and I dont know too many people that have got them. I think I would find it very very hard to get 12 points in 2 years. I would have to go completely nuts altogether and even then it would be difficult because I hardly ever see the Gardai. How many people have actually received 12 points ? Not many in comparison to the lunatic drivers I see on the road every day.

What is the go with boy racers ? How do they not realise how rediculous they are ?

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Do you reckon you'll think the same if/when you have 6 points or 8 points yourself?

I guarantee I will never get near 6/8 points with current Garda surveillance levels.

Are you saying that you never break the speed limit RainyDay ?

As someone mentioned earlier, it is more dangerous to drive the 30mph limit on certain stretches of road (with too low a limit) because the cars behind you go bananas and do crazy manouvres.

Dont get me wrong, I am a very relaxed driver but I am no slouch. I always keep my distance and hardly ever overtake.

BTW, Can anyone be honest on this site without the holier-than-thou attitude of the moderators ?

You misinterpreted me. I wasn't giving you a hard time. It was a genuine question. It seemed to me that you were missing the point of the points system - if you do find yourself on 6 or 8 points, I reckon that would have a substantial impact on your driving habits.

And yes, I'm sure I've broken speed limits in the past week.

I reckon my driving habbits are exactly as described by Teabag.

I am the proud owner of 2 penalty points gained on the Tallaght By Pass.

Shortly afterwards they revised the speed limit so it turns out I wasn't driving dangerously after all. But hey, that's life. Shifting my habbits to driving on more dangerous narrow roads rather than fish in a barrell dual carriagways where possible, combined with under policing of the actual dangerous roads should see me safely clear of ever reaching 12 points. Here's hoping.

It's the old risk reward calculation. Probability of accident goes up a bit, probability of being banned from driving goes down substantially. Shame it has come to this given how much motor tax I pay, but again...that's life.

-Rd

Sorry RaninyDay, jumped the gun a bit there. I do think though that certain grumpy moderators tend to miss the point of people's topics. They tend to dissect the posts and then criticise individual parts without understanding the meaning.

In relation to points, there are loads of boy racers in my area driving like lunatics day&night down small dangerous country roads - there is no chance of them getting any points either cos the Gardai generally only speed check the bigger roads on the long straight stretches. If the points system cant deter boy racers, who is it aimed at ?

I'm with daltonr on this one. I keep to the back roads as much as I can. Less traffic. Less speedy drivers and snail drivers. No Gardai. Just pleasant, sensible driving.

I presume that this "keeping to the back roads" strategy is just a roundabout way of saying "I'm going to keep speeding"....

My original point on this thread was that we need to get to a culture of compliance.

If there's consensus that speed limits are in fact for other people and not for us then I suppose I should just stay at home because people will never obey the law and seem to resent the authorities enforcing it.

Your presumptions are inaccurate. On the back roads there is no room for speed. The quality of the roads demand a sensible speed. But you will not be done if you wander a few km above the limit, and you will not be stuck behind a chap doing 70 in an 80 zone.

As for your culture of compliance - I believe another term for that is police state. They had a culture of complaince in Germany in the mid-late thirties. They have a culture of compliance in North Korea right now.

What we need is a culture of understanding. A culture of reason. A mature culture that understands rights and responsibilities. A country that treats it's citizens with respect. And citizens that respect reasonable laws sensibly applied.