Northern Ireland killing

Sad that even 11 years or so post a settlement of sorts and relative peace that sectarian hatred still runs so raw.

Has been a lot of it in Ballymena over the last few years as well, people beaten to death or were killed when trying to escape a mob.

Not wanting to do the usual "whataboutery" or score keeping between the 2 sides, but does anyone else think that, while sectarianism is obviously part of the republican psyche (despite denials), it does seem to be more pronounced on the loyalist side, who take the religous aspect as being a bit more to the core?

Even apart from loyalists, the likes of the Orange Order who I gather would encompass more mainstream elements as well, stick close to the anti-catholic consititution. Its like their raison d'etre. Various shady "pastors" were also doing the rounds when Billy Wright was in his pomp.

As has been so vividly & gut wrenchingly demonstrated in the South, theres nothing like religious zeal to create the conditions for horrible deeds.
 

I think this has been, and is, fairly accurate.

The main reason I think is the lack of paramilitary intelligence on the loyalist side - the republicans were always much better organised and informed. Loyalist extremists seem to have found it easier to be basically sectarian rather than wage a war of 'defending Ulster'. Easier to murder catholics than to identify and 'assasinate' leading republicans for example.
 
Northern Ireland will never find peace until the children go to integrated schools and learn that children of a different faith are just normal kids like themselves.

The Catholic Church in Northern Ireland has a vested interest in keeping the schools segregated, a ready-made Church population, and has clearly indicated that it is not willing to embrace children of all religions.

Reigious schools should be abolished, only state-run secular schools should remain and the children should be taught that we're all just human beings with similar needs and desires trying to get through life as best we can.

Schools are for educating children not for brain-washing them with one or the other religion. If their parents want them to practice a particular faith, then they should do so at home and in Church, but not in schools!
 
Betsy, NI prod extremists more sectarian than their RC opp numbers? I think you're right and it lies deep in the cultures of the actual religions.

In simple terms the Catholic Church is obsessed with the belief that it is right whilst some of the Protestant sects seem more obsessed with their belief that the CC is wrong. Hence we get such epithets as the Pope is the Anti Christ or is the "Harlot of Rome".
 
I'm sure 'God' whether in the RC or Protestant format was not in the minds of the 40 scumbags who murdered that man on Sunday!
They are inhumane animals who behaved like the worst kind of blood-thirsty animal when jumping,stamping and kicking that man to death - not to mention his wife and friend...
Hopefully some of them will have nightmares for the rest of their lives knowing they took an innocent life - but I doubt it somehow.
 
bren1916 said:
I'm sure 'God' whether in the RC or Protestant format was not in the minds of the 40 scumbags who murdered that man on Sunday!
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I dont disagree but I suppose the wider point is that if religious/cultural issues are driving sectarianism (as opposed to political divisions) then it is going to be so much harder to get over them.
 
Betsy Og said:
I dont disagree but I suppose the wider point is that if religious/cultural issues are driving sectarianism (as opposed to political divisions) then it is going to be so much harder to get over them.
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I don't think it's quite accurate to say this.

Think about kids growing up, in the wrong part of town with maybe the wrong kind of parents: they are taught or they learn from an early age that either catholics or protestants are different/weird/to be hated etc etc.

They are too young to comprehend the wider political/historical arguments - it all starts off blatantly sectarian on both sides.

If these kids then become 'militant' they will simply adopt the approach of their groupings - republicans, generally targeting representatives of the British occupying forces and loyalists, generally IMO unable to target the republicans, so often pick softer targets - e.g. catholic civilians.

I think it is more that the MO of the loyalists is more sectarian driven than the republicans - rather than loyalists are more sectarian per se.

IMO a roughly equal amount of sectarianism on both sides, in the formative years, is responsible.
 
Good points.

I suppose the only "paper" difference is that the religious connections on the loyalist side (reverands, pastors, the Orange Order etc.) make that link a bit more visible to the general public, whereas there is not an overt religious "wing" to the republican side & Sinn Fein will actively bleat on about not being sectarian.
 

Well said. This should also be extended to council housing. The idea that people are allocated housing according to their religion or ethnic background must be against every equality law in existance. Why is is allowed to continue in NI? As the government (or local authority) owns all the local authority housing, they could insist on mixed local authority estates. Since the vast majority of the thugs on both sides seem to be from a local authority housing background, it would prevent the next generation from growing up in sectarian ghettos.
 
Hold on a second I'm not sure that Northern Ireland is the only place in the world with Catholic Schools. How come there is no such sectarianism in France the US mainland UK (exception is Scotland). The problem lies with the politicians on both sides alienating their communities for their own selfish needs. I went to a catholic school and I was never thought that children of a different faith were any different to me so I don't know where that comes from.
 

Have you ever heard any loyalist claiming that he did not like Catholics because they don't read the bible enough - or a Republician joining the IRA because he was so strongly against the theological view methodists have on predesination?

The issue is not one of religion at all it is much more fundamental - tribal...

The Catholic church and also the Protestant churches have played very important roles in bringing the two communities together and also were pivitol in facilitating the ceasefire.

I went to a Catholic school and aswell as learning about the Catholic faith I was also taught about the wealth of richness in the protestant traditions - and I have no reason to believe that my Catholic education was any different than any other Catholic education.

In an Northern Ireland were Catholics were in the past discriminated against the Church provided a very good education and this ensured that Irish people were given a better chance and also taught that justice in society could be achieved by peaceful means.
 


I'm Catholic and come from a mixed marriage of Catholic and Protestant. When my Prostestant grandmother died a few years back, the local Catholic parish priest came to visit to offer his condolences. When i made the comment about it being a lovely funeral service at the Church of Ireland, he replied disparagingly 'well they do things a lot differently than us' and continued on to basically declare how a Protestant burial was inferior to a Catholic one. Then followed a heated theological debate which ended up with the priest being asked to leave and banned from our home ever since. So i have reason to believe there is still a lot of bigotry, even here in the South.
 
In response to Betsy's last post, whilst there may not be a visible religious wing to republicanism, don't forget that particularly in the 70s and early 80s, it was not completely unknown for rural priests to provide food, shelter, cover and support for known active republicans.
 
Weren't the baying mob Ranger supporters, so should we blame soccer as opposed to religion on this one? Of course not.

The problem as I see it is that people like to form their own clique based on certain conditions such as race, religion, culture, language etc.

This is human nature, albeit a very dark side of it.
 

I agree with this, but there also seems to be an air of that type of hooliganism up north from what i can see. Was walking through newry main st 2 weeks ago around midday and came across a bunch of football supporters standing outside a pub drinking pints, all drunk, staggering across the street and shouting at passersby. A bit disconcerting, but something you'd also probably see in dublin in some places. However last saturday was driving through lurgan at 9am with a horsebox when a load of blokes were crossing the main street shouting their heads off...football chants from what i understood but i found it strange and very intimidating at 9am in the morning. i became very aware of my southern reg and really wanted to get out of Dodge before the horse in the back got upset. Have travelled all over ireland and never came across that before. And i was also wondering where the police were to stop this kind of behaviour.

also an incident happened my brother when he was driving in newry where he rear-ended a car one evening. no big damage but he cracked the number plate on the other car...now you can imagine the fuss if it happened in dublin, but the person in the other car just looked in their rear view mirror and drove on! what kind of mentality do you have when you're rear ended and you refuse to get out of your car to inspect the damage??
 

An innocent Catholic man is beaten to death yet you manage to find a way of blaming the Catholic church?

Isn't it funny that Catholic schools can be found the world over yet are a problem only in the North and in Scotland? Anti-Catholic bigotry is the problem, not Catholic schooling.

Things are so much more easy when you can sermonise from a distance eh?
 
Bill Struth said:
Things are so much more easy when you can sermonise from a distance eh?
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I think there's merit in the reasoning that it there was more social integration (e.g. schools as but one example) then it would help. The same conclusions were drawn after the riots a few years ago in the North West of England (forget which town, Blackburn or thereabouts) when it was noted that the local Asian community was completely isolated from the merry Englanders and that was a big contributory factor.

So its not that the school is catholic is the problem per se, but that it will primarily attract one community with the net effect of lack of integration.

On the same theme, naming sports clubs so as to "mark the territory" is also another missed opportunity for integration. I know its a hassle or naieve or easy to say from a distance, but until relations are "normalised" on the ground then the potential for sectarian mobs will always be there.
 
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