Nine Songs!

Re: HTML Comments are not allowed

I spent a considerable time last night composing a response to ClubMans posting, only to see it deleted.

ClubMan claims it was deleted by 'the machine' and not him.
Whatever.

If you don't believe me then so be it. The HTML comments not allowed issue is a well known and annoying feature (I'd call it a bug) on ezBoard. If you still insist on believing that I (or any other moderator) would resort to censoring somebody simply because they disagree with or challenge me and/or would use an ezBoard bug as some sort of subterfuge to deny responsibility then, as you say, WHATEVER! :\

ClubMan is a "MODERATOR" on this Bulletin Board. He regularly edits and deletes threads, deletes comments, and locks discussions. Indeed he has just deleted a posting by GeeGee, inserted his excuse, and locked the discussion.

ClubMan is vehement in asserting his god given RIGHT to access the vilest pornography because "...why should any individual or group decide what content other grown adults should be allowed access?" and yet he registers absolutely no contradiction in his position when he chooses to CENSOR what I write or what YOU can read.

This is simply not true but there is obviously no point in attempting to reason with you. Neither did I delete any post by geegee and/or lock the topic in question (please link to the locked topic in question if you think otherwise). Last night I did post an explanation for geegee about how one of his/her posts was quarantined by another modetator for review because the topic to which it referred had been previously locked. Otherwise I had no involvement in this matter but just posted the explanation out of courtesy to geegee and any other readers who might have been confused.

While you may insist on attempting to blacken my name in some way I trust that most reasonable contributors - including those who strongly disagree me on various topics or who have engaged in vigorous debates with me - will draw their own conclusions about my bona fides as a contributor and moderator/administrator from my track record on AAM to date. I trust that they can also draw their own conclusions from your track record and your inimitable debating "style".

In other words, his convictions on 'freedom of content' only apply when and where, and to whom he chooses.
Specifically, he is the arbiter of our viewing.

No - I am merely expressing my opinion on the matter. I have no direct control over what people choose to view.

In other words, his convictions on 'freedom of content' only apply when and where, and to whom he chooses.
Specifically, he is the arbiter of our view

Once again - if you can't play by the rules you should probably desist from posting at all.
 
Re: HTML Comments are not allowed

I'd just like to add, on Clubman's behalf, that what Asimov has just written about him is absolute unadulterated rubbish and entirely untrue, both in terms of his basic understanding of the moderation that goes on here and his understanding of what was being discussed in this thread. Petulant child indeed.
 
Re: HTML Comments are not allowed

Thanks for your support Gabriel but I'd imagine it's pointless as far as Asimov is concerned since s/he'll probably just accuse me of posting under the monikers ClubMan and Gabriel. WHATEVER!
 
Re: 9 songs

A google search for
ezboard "HTML comments not allowed"
yields 51 website references to this issue (none of which appear to originate from AAM).

A google search for
ezboard "HTML comments are not allowed"
yields 324 website references (which I don't have the time to individually check)

If Clubman is to blame for all this, he surely is even more prolific than I ever imagined!
 
Askaboutmoney is about Irish consumer finance issues.

I think might be useful to go back to first principles here:

Askaboutmoney is a discussion forum on Irish consumer finance issues.
Click to expand...

and Rule 17

Moderators and Admins have neither the desire or inclination to expend time and effort monitoring, moderating and editing topics which clearly fall outside the scope of the forum.

Letting off Steam was a category established for contributers to the main AAM categories to occcasionaly discuss issues which fall out side this scope.

Other forums exist (politics.ie, boards.ie) where such issues as "Northern Ireland Politics" or "Morality in Ireland" can be discussed and perhaps these forums should be considered where one wants to conduct heated discussions on these topics.

ajapale
 
Re: Askaboutmoney is about Irish consumer finance issues.

Hi ajapale,

Actually, I think it would be a shame not to discuss these issues here as, in one form or other, we always have.

If you go back some time ago you'll find a promise that a certain someone made as to how he would conduct himself on this board from there on in. It concerned a certain airline and Brendan's banning of that topic. I believe he's following through on that promise and, in my opinion, letting him upset the normal flow of discussions here would only be letting him win.
 
Re: Askaboutmoney is about Irish consumer finance issues.

If, as Asimov claimed, I am hypocritical in anything here it may well be in the relatively minor fact that I originally (among the moderators) was one of the strongest objectors to allowing discussion of non "core" topics (e.g. those that did not strongly or obviously relate to issues of [personal] finance) but once the decision was taken to allow such discussions I went hell for leather in engaging in some of them! Ultimately I enjoy lively discussion/debate on most topics but it's unfortunate that a minority of contributors, even if they have strong views contrary to others, cannot concentrate on reasoned discussion of the substantive matters in hand and instead resort to insults and false accusations often to deflect from the fact that their arguments are untenable or based on misrepresentations of others' opinions. Maybe I should stick to the "above the line" forums from now on... :\
 
Censorship

Neither did I delete any post by geegee and/or lock the topic in question (please link to the locked topic in question if you think otherwise).
Click to expand...
As it happens, I saw GeeGees post last night also. His thread was called 'Where has my post gone' and he asked a question about a posting he had made. ClubMan, you responded to his post and told him his missing thread was being reviewed by the moderators.

I think its rather disingenious of you to ask Asimov to prove his point by linking to the thread...when you know thats impossible because you already deleted it!

Don't try to wriggle out of the censorship point by claiming innocence, you've censored ME on numerous occasions, and certain subjects which are wholly in the public domain are even banned from discussion here. So much for freedom of access to content by adults!

Finally, you say "Once again - if you can't play by the rules you should probably desist from posting at all."

I would put it to you that if your convictions about censorship are as deeply held as you claim then that is incompatible and indeed hypocritical. I would suggest a better course of action for you - if you had any integrity and truly mean what you said about 'freedom of access to content' - then you should resign as a moderator immediately.

Don't bother trying to explain what mental gymnastics you use to salve your conscience, I'm not interested in how your mind works. Its a simple test of your bona fides, and I know 100% you will fail it.
 
Re: Censorship

I give up! :rolleyes

ClubMan, you responded to his post and told him his missing thread was being reviewed by the moderators.

I think its rather disingenious of you to ask Asimov to prove his point by linking to the thread...when you know thats impossible because you already deleted it!

Why would I bother replying to a post (which I did) and then delete the topic (which I did not although I presume that another moderator did for some reason)?

Don't try to wriggle out of the censorship point by claiming innocence, you've censored ME on numerous occasions, and certain subjects which are wholly in the public domain are even banned from discussion here. So much for freedom of access to content by adults!

It is quite possible that I have indeed deleted posts by you but only because they contravened the posting guidelines. Abiding by the declared posting guidelines on this site which have been mutually agreed on by the moderators and being involved in the moderation process which ensures that they are not contravened is in no way inconsistent with my personal views on freedom of speech/access to content etc.

I would put it to you that if your convictions about censorship are as deeply held as you claim then that is incompatible and indeed hypocritical. I would suggest a better course of action for you - if you had any integrity and truly mean what you said about 'freedom of access to content' - then you should resign as a moderator immediately.

OK - I'll do a deal - the day that you or Asimov are invited to become moderators I will step down to make way for you. I'll even abstain if it comes to a vote by the moderators. Agreed?

Don't bother trying to explain what mental gymnastics you use to salve your conscience, I'm not interested in how your mind works. Its a simple test of your bona fides, and I know 100% you will fail it.

Failing the Tharggy bona fide test? Hmmmm ... I think I can live with that without the need for too much conscience salving.
 
Re: Censorship

Actually I think we're on a different planet at this stage? Look at those spacemen go.... 0]
 
Re: Censorship


Hoisted by your own petard "ClubMan"!! :lol

I'll do a deal - the day that you or Asimov are invited to become moderators
Click to expand...
And who makes the invites? You and your Censorial Brethren?
Gimme a break.

Beginning to understand the value of censorship yet?

Suppose I link to a Porn site from here?
You OK with that?
I think not.

You are a mental midget evidently, as well as a hypocrite.

CENSOR me now Mr.CENSOR...I'm asking for it!!!
 
Re: Censorship

For those without the time or inclination to read through Thargy's full post, here's the significant bit;
I'm asking for it
Click to expand...
This is simply a pile of attention-seeking, trolling twaddle. Tharg - This isn't the Supreme Court, or the Irish Times or some other hugely important state institution where you have some inalienable personal right to express yourself. It's a small, backwoods bulletin board for discussing Irish personal financial queries - That's all. Your personal rights aren't being invalidated by our policies. There are many, many other bulletin boards where you can continue your trolling. Please either;
1) find somewhere else to troll
2) start adding some value to this little community of ours by posting on financial issues, instead of just trolling on Ryanair/Aer Lingus/moderation.

My preference would be for number 1. Note that I'm speaking on a personal basis, not as a moderator.
 
Re: Censorship

Hoisted by your own petard "ClubMan"!!

Didn't the Bard say "hoist by his own petard"?

And who makes the invites? You and your Censorial Brethren?

Brendan and the moderators invite reasonable and constructive contributors to become moderators from time to time. I'm sure that unsolicited applications on the part of individuals would also be considered. on their own merits.

Gimme a break.

I already did - I said I'd abstain in any nomination or vote for the likes of yourself to become moderator. I'd even go so far as to suggest that if there is a groundswell of general opinion (in the form of established AAM contributors) for you to become moderator I will even step down and offer you my place as moderator although I can't guarantee that the other moderators will necessarily accept you.

Suppose I link to a Porn site from here?
You OK with that?

Wouldn't bother me personally but since this bulletin board is not my personal plaything, and I don't attempt to treat it as such - unlike some, and the posting guidelines have been formulated by the moderators and refined over time the decision is not mine alone.

You are a mental midget evidently, as well as a hypocrite.

CENSOR me now Mr.CENSOR...I'm asking for it!!!

:lol

Have you ever considered anger management counselling? I sometimes worry about you not to mention your passengers up there at 30,000 feet.
 
Re: Censorship

There are many, many other bulletin boards where you can continue your trolling.
Click to expand...
Trolling? Not a bit of it. I simply detest hypocrisy, and I see it in spades here.

Must I make the point again?

ClubMan has expressed his deeply held beliefs that adults should not have their viewing content censored, yet he is a censor on this website and regularly restricts the viewing content on this website.

The rules on AAM are of absolutely no consequence in this discussion and are beside the point.

The issue is ClubMans double standards, and the fundamental flaw it exposes in the larger 'Right On' culture of PC liberalism.

I really have nothing against poor old ClubMan. He' can't help it if he's confused. Its just that he is the visible manifestation of all that hypocrisy which infects our society.

They say if you scratch a liberal you find a fascist underneath. Sadly, ClubMan is proof of it.

PS Congratulations for resisting the temptation to delete my comments, but then...that would just prove my point, wouldn't it? How frustrating is that for you!

PPS Gabriel, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Asimov. Could it have anything to do with how he spanked your bottom in the thread about Sinn Fein?

I noticed in that discussion you were highly supportive of the Reverend Ian Paisley. Interesting bedfellows you choose....do you think the good reverend would approve of your advocacy of porn? Or would he say NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!!! :lol
 
Re: Censorship

ClubMan has expressed his deeply held beliefs that adults should not have their viewing content censored, yet he is a censor on this website and regularly restricts the viewing content on this website.

I was referring to state censorship as opposed to individual fora (such as this) which decide upon their own posting guidelines and on what is deemed acceptable or not in that specific context. There is nothing preventing me, you or anybody else starting up a bulletin board called something like Ask About Money, Tits and Ass if we want and taking a more permissive approach to the type of content posted. However I'm not sure that it would address the primary goal of discussion of [personal] finance and related matters as well as AAM.

They say if you scratch a liberal you find a fascist underneath. ClubMan is proof of it.

So - let's see - at this stage I'm a hypocritical, conscience salving, midget minded, fascistic liberal mental gymnast who promulgates child porn and who has been hoisted (sic.) by my own petard? Anything else to add to that?
 
Re: Censorship

ClubMan, you are rationalising. Stop it.

If you believe there are occasions (like here) where censorship is inevitable, then you have just admitted that Asimov was right all along, and all your quibbling is wasted breath.

Its not personal ClubMan, I'm sure you're a nice guy....you just haven't thought things through properly.
 
Re: Censorship

ClubMan, you are rationalising

Sorry - I forgot that rational debate was beyond some peoples' ken. My apologies.

Its not personal ClubMan, I'm sure you're a nice guy....

If you think that somebody alleged to be "a hypocritical, conscience salving, midget minded, fascistic liberal mental gymnast who promulgates child porn and who has been hoisted (sic.) by [his/her] own petard" is a nice person then I'm not sure what that says about you. :\
 
Re: Censorship

Rationalisation (psychiatry) a defense mechanism by which your true motivation is concealed by explaining your actions and feelings in a way that is not threatening.

"a hypocritical, conscience salving, midget minded, fascistic liberal mental gymnast who promulgates child porn and who has been hoisted (sic.) by [his/her] own petard" is a nice person then I'm not sure what that says about you."
Click to expand...
That I'm an optimist? :lol
 
sex

The last dozen or so exchanges border on personal attacks which is not surprising given the potential volatility of the subject - which is probably sex rather than censorship.

Discussing highly-personal attitudes to sex on the edges of a forum on money (as both ajapale and ClubMan have recalled to be the purpose of the forum) is guaranteed - for a raft of unconscious psychological reasons - to produce heated discussion.

I do think the discussion is appropriate on a money forum since what is at issue is the displacement of intimate physical relationship from its (usual, biological) couple setting, into the realm of media (t.v., video, film, porn magazines live-sex-clubs etc.) which are if not directly part of 'the culture' are certainly a sub-culture. Pornography, prostitution and marketed perversions of every ilk are traded and are highly lucrative (prospering the actors and technicians who make them as well as the entrepreneurs, as has been pointed out in several posts).

There is an interesting sub-text in this thread that prior to these more 'liberal' sexually-explicit times in which we live there was (a) no sex or (b) poor sex or (c) hypocracy and there was (a) no financial exploitation of sex or (b) poorly-developed trade in sexuality or (c) everyone was pure as the driven snow.

The dichotomies don't represent the reality 'then' or 'now' and the issue is a deal more complex.

As a woman I am very clear in my own mind that men or women (though it is usually men!) who need or choose recourse to fantasy activity with images or strangers (porn mags/films/prostitutes, fetishistic perversions) as a substitute for physical, sensual sexual relationship with a (consenting peer) human then there is a problem.

As a psychotherapist my experience has been that individuals who make such choices need - as with any substitute or addiction - to indulge in more and more of whatever the activity is - and increasingly 'heavy' stimuli are resorted to to achieve sexual satisfaction ending with the 'hard porn' and 'child porn' end of the spectrum.

Perhaps the difficulty of debating these important issues is that as well as engaging deeply-held convictions and morals some cultural products (films, paintings, drama books etc.) are considered as art (which enhances our sensibilities and appreciation and understanding of human sexuality) by some and as vulgarity and pornographic by others (the displacement of healthy sexuality by voyeurism, fetishism etc.)

The clue is in the increasing move of film-institute type films into general release and onto DVD and television entirely on the basis of the profit motive and outside of a context of debate and reflection on the issues raised.

Personally I find pornography tedious after a conscious 'induction' by my sister and her Dutch partner to that side of life during holidays in Amsterdam when I was in my early 20's. Real life and real relationships and real sex are far more interesting. However it is a matter of extreme concern to think that teenagers struggling with issues of autonomy, dependency, relationship during adolescence would be exposed to images and ideas (increasingly generated from financial rather than artistic motives) which confuse, trouble and distort their healthy development.

We need to be able to distinguish fine art and its motives and effects from commercial packages of titilation floated from the 'sub-culture' into the culture with the implicit sales-pitch that to object, reject, or censor is 'uncool' or 'unliberated'. This does not infantalise adults - men or women - or reduce their freedom but rather engages their maturity in the necessity of deciding and working for the kind of community and society in which the position of those more vulnerable - the young - is respected.
 
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