New House - Vents

Builders know well about the rules that an adequate ventilation is required. Back in the old times people heated their houses with the aid of uncontrolled combustion, usually here in Ireland that was the open fire. An uncontrolled combustion can release carbon monoxyde.To avoid the silent death of the ocupiers by suffication-or at least to give them a chance of survival- these vents made fully sense.
But nowadays we have central heating and either good boilers running independantly from an air supply via the house/room or we use separate boiler rooms in place. So there is absolutely no use for vents/holes inthe walls with the aim to avoid carbonmonoxide poisening. Of course if there is some other source of uncontrolled combustion present-like open fires as back in the old times-a hole in the wall is a must.
But nowadays? No open fire is necessary to heat the room/house....
So why still building walls with holes in them ? Builders are aware of the minimum requirements for ventilation. To achive these minimum requirements one could build in large windows that can be opened. Opened either fully to ventilate the room rapidly or opened a little bit for trickle ventilation.To stay in tunes with the building regulations the windows would have to be large with "swing open" frames (6500mm2/m2 floor space). These cost more money as small picture windows with a little flap at the top.That is the simple reason why these holes in the wall are still used, combined with the reason of course that cheap heating systems from the beginning of industrialisation are still used.
For the bricklayer's wages it won't make much difference if he puts a metall frame in place or a brick, it costs as much time i.e.money.
I lived myself for a while in a house build in the late 80s . Some rooms had such a little window opening that air vents where necessarry, several fillings of the oiltank per year where necessarry to keep that house (and all the others in the street) warm. Just because the builder saved a few bobs on proper windows and heating systems. And to Carpenter:When I said to the original poster bertson that holes in the wall ("air vents") can be filled for good as long as there is no carbon monoxyde source you answered that this was against the building regulations.Now as long as there is adequat ventilation via the windows on demand this step of closing the vents is by no means against building regulations.
As far as I remember the building regulations demand a draft free house to conserve energy and to make the occupier happy ,so the existing arrangement of bertson's "air vents" are actually against the building regulations, esp.since bertson has stated that heating doesn't make much sense since the heat is faster blown out than created ("....making heating pointless").
But thanks for the post about the minimum requirements for passive ventilation (which could be any kind of openings,not necessarrily windows) :6500mm2/m2 of room surface. No air vent ( the holes in the wall with an anti mice/bird grit) is that big anyhow.

heinbloed said:

As far as I remember the building regulations demand a draft free house to conserve energy and to make the occupier happy ,so the existing arrangement of bertson's "air vents" are actually against the building regulations

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I find it hard to believe that but would welcome some authoritative information on the subject.

As far i know you have to provide ventilation to every room. This may be through wall vents, or other methods ( window/door vents) To say a builder in putting in wall vents because it is the cheap way out is just wrong.If as you say ''the existing arrangement of bertson's "air vents" are actually against the building regulations'' then why would the builder put them in, in the first place. Its not just a case of putting a pipe in the wall and buyin a cover. It disrupts work for the blocklayer, the plasterer, the painter, and the outside finish. Surely if the evil builder didnt have to put these in he wouldnt.

Heinbloed is misinformed when it comes to these air vents, I'm not going to quote from TGD F of the Building Regulations, 2002 they can be reviewed online at http://www.environ.ie (www.environ.ie).
However I will clarify some points- background ventilation is not intended purely as a defence against CO2 poisining, it's incorporated in modern buildings to make "adequate provision for the removal of water vapour from kitchens, bathrooms and other areas where water vapour is generated". The requirements for air supply to appliances (stoves, boilers, open fires and the like) are covered under TGD Part J, 1997. If anyone is in any doubt regarding ventilation could I suggest they consult these two documents online. Irish Building regulations make no provisions as regards the air tightness of a structure at present, however this is likely to be introduced in the future for certain types of buildings. There are some provisions made in TGD Part L for air infiltration through some structural elements at present.

The building regulations from 1991,part L, "consrevation of fuel and energy" ,page 6, state in the first paragragh , L1, enhanced in grey, the following: "A building shall be so designed and constructed as to secure,insofar as is reasonably practicable,the conservation of fuel and energy."
So my advice to the original poster bertson (to close the holes unless there are appliances in the room causing uncontrolled combustion ) was and is right. And certainly not against the building regulations , Carpenter.
Unless the newer building regulations have watered down this old first ever building regulation of Ireland. The grey enhanced parts of the building regulations ARE binding.
My question to ludermore:
If these holes in the walls are not necessary by the building regulations - we all here would like to see the proof why they are necessary - why else would builders put them in ? Sure to safe money on a proper ventilation/heating system?! These holes are not used on the continent unless there is a source of uncontrolled combustion (an outdated heating system for example).....and the medical problems arising from CO poisoning are the same with all people on this globe, nothing unique the the Irish ?
Water vapour is no excuse to have holes in the wall, think about a submarine (smiley). Or just visit a public swimming pool , the guest would sue the managers if there was a cold draft blowing through the hall . Using technical systems -if we may call the holes as such- that are from a preindustrial age in a modern home means cheating the unaware buyer. He/she thinks they have bought something modern and it is just a shed style building (holes in the wall !!) equipped with " central heating " ( a water pipe above a fire, though pumped). No insult from me, just facing the facts of common building methods.
If you go to various builders home pages, especially the timber frame manufacturers , they simply don't have this feature : holes in the walls.
And to keep up this booting way of making money in the building bussiness this Irish gouvernment is all likely the last in the EU to arrange for a mandatory energy passs for homes ......Who has donated to them , who has voted them ? Guess the builders, the mortgage providers who would see their "assets" loosing in value due to the dreaded burst of the bubble. 10 or 20 percent it could cost to retrofit a building with the necessarry improvements just to keep up the value in a competing market-to keep the value, not to increase it. The same building could have been build using 1-2 % more money but building it according to modern technic/design....But the poor buyers would not be able to afford this tremendous sum, equivalent to the energy bill of one or two years , wouldn't they ?! So they got what they want I guess.
P.S. I put it to the moderators to place this/my post into the rant and chant corner , LOS.

Hi Heinbloed,

I think it is best to leave your post in this thread as it is more relevant here.

Sueellen.

Heinbloed- I did say the TGDs were not the only way of satisfying the regulations but they represent the (probably) easiest solution to meeting the regulations using standard, conventional construction methods and materials. Part F "Ventilation" states "Adequate means of ventilation shall be provided for people in buildings, including adequate provision for the removal of water vapour from kitchens, bathrooms and other areas where water vapour is generated". This could be achieved by opening windows alone but this would lead to huge heat losses, draughts etc. It can be achieved by mechanical extractaction but a supply of replacement air is also required (via wall vents). Unless air handling equipment is used extensively in the home (perhaps with heat recovering/ air tempering provision) some form of permanent, passive fresh air intake is required thus wall vents. You talk about feature loaded homes which are beyond the scope (read budget) of most people, the original queries related to the provision of wall vents- are they necessary? In short yes- unless you have a mechanical/ passive system in place, designed to handle the production of water vapour in the home and capable of meeting our requirements for fresh air. For the vast majority of homes built in Ireland (rightly or wrongly) the Building Regulations TGDs represent a practical, conventional way to achieve compliance with the Second Schedule of the Regulations. Other systems which incorporate technology and improved construction methods to achieve compliance are available but at a significant cost. My responses are based on conventioanl building methods, current good practice and solutions widely available "off the shelf".
In the ideal world I'd love to live in a home built with SIPs, incorporating solar panels to provide DHW, a ground source heat pump for CH, Passive Stack Ventilation with Heat Recovery, all constructed using materials with Zero OD potential and ultimately recyclable. If I did live in such a home I'd probably be on Duncan's TV show (which I love) but unfortunately I couldn't afford such a home- and this hurts because I am aware of my energy consumption and I like to believe I have some green credentials- but that's a discussion for another day.

I live in a house built in the late 80's with no ventilation. Friends of mine have just built a new house and didn't put vents in their house but opted for vents in the windows instead. I was going to see about getting vents put in to my windows as I don't like the thoughts of getting holes bored in the walls. Can anyone advise as to which would be the best option, I don't want to waste money on window vents if I would be better off to get the vents put in to the wall.

Hi Ribena,

I thought you lived in an old house? No matter, it won't be easy (maybe even impossible) to retrofit permavents in existing windows. They are not attractive in anycase. Cheapest option (and can be done neatly and cleanly with careful planning) is to core drill the walls and fit hit/miss grilles internally and fixed louvred grilles externally.

Nope, I live in an 80's time-warp! I think MissRibena might live in an old house alright. I took it from my friend that it was easy to get the vents in the windows, even mentioned it in passing to a window friend of mine and he said it would be easy. I'd rather spend the money on the right job no matter how much it costs. Who would you recommend to get to assess the job?? I know my parents had insulation blasted in to their house a few years ago. Is it insulation people you contact or builders who would do it for me?? Thanks in advance Carpenter.

Sorry Ribena, I had confused you with Miss Ribena! Go to a window supplier and see if the windows in your house can be fitted with permavents. But look at a sample of the vent before you give the go ahead, I don't think they'e pretty (I know wall vents aren't pretty either). If you opt for the wall vents this is a job for a handyman and it should be possible to do a 4 bed house in a 1- 2 days.

Okay, thanks for that Carpenter. I'll give my window friend a call and see what he has to offer vent-wise first before I go down they handyman route. If I got my hands on a handyman right now, I'd never let him go!!

I Bought in September (2nd House in Clonsilla, Built 05/2003). We moved into the house and discovered the Gas Fire was Gone, Couple obviously never had 1. Pipes are there and the Grate is literally a copper Pipe and some Pot Pourie :-(
There is No Vent in the Wall, only slight slits in the Window... Which I have been told isnt sufficent to get a Gas Fire. Ive now to go a find someone to Drill out the whole and rent the Equipment! Im bulling as I thought all new houses wud have to have Vent holes!

Crikey !

There I was, gone for months.

First place I drop into on AAM & you are all debating if a hole in a wall is a good way to ventilate a house.

Very Retro, Very 1950s

The rest of the world gave up on this decades ago ( IIRC some of the council houses / flats in London were fitted with heat exchanging controlled ventilation systems in the 70's )

Google pulls up thousands of pages in this topic

Here is the first one that I got :

http://oikos.com/esb/39/VentOpt.html

The introduction :

"In the old days, buildings were ventilated by the wind and other uncontrolled forms of air leakage. However, most people no longer accept the cold, drafty houses of the old days."

LOL!

Irish building regs : An Irish solution to an Irish problem ? ( fine if you can afford the heating bill )

Have to go now....I'm in the middle of a crisis

Will drop in again in a few months...Brendan permitting



Olddog

Welcome back!

I am about to sign off on a house which has windows with vents. There are no permavents. On this basis, is the builder complying with the building regs?

I just put up a new vent cover in the master bedroom, vent hole is ~280mm, their was no way I considered a non-closable vent. Even with it shut I can still detect air movement as the wall is not fully flat.

I think their is a balance between meeting the regs/saftey and comfort, a given vent will allow more air through depending on building aspect and the weather?

My amateur opinion is that a perceivable draught other than in the immediate proximity of the vent is not the intention and if it is the reality I would maybe cover 30% of the vent and see it the results are acceptable.

ClubMan said:

Is this really a cheap way to implement ventilation

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This is the only cost effective method.

All people breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide and water vapour (Avg person exhales ~0.5l of water per day, this is why your breath steams up a cold window or mirror).

The purpose of the ventilation is to allow for the exhaled air to be replaced with fresh air and to allow the water vapour to escape from the house.
No ventilation leads to problems with dampness (condensation) mildew, sick building syndrome, as well as the risk of carbon monoxide posioning from fires and boilers.

If the vent is causing a draught, you can try to turn louvre vents upside down so draft blows against the ceiling instead of down into the room,
or fit a hit and miss vent (the sliding type) and close them on particularly windy days.

The house also needs rapid ventilation in addition to the trickle ventilation provided by vents, so open you windows and air the house regularly.

Rapid ventilation is legal and most recommended. Just open the doors and windows for a minute on a windy day or a few minutes on a silent day. Repeat this two or three times a day , depending on usage and occupation even more frequently. That would make any perma vent surplus, unless of course there is an open source of combustion.
A builder that does away with perma vents is complying with the building regulations if there are no open sources of combustion like stoves,boilers, open fires. And the window openings (for the rapid ventilation) should have a minimum size, depending on the size of the room. See the building regulations.

You could install single room heat recovery ventilation systems from the likes of www.allvent.com
Or you could get one of there whole house heat recovery units but that would be hard to retrofit.
Other suppliers are www.villavent.co.uk
If anyone had installed an independent air supply for their fire I'd like to hear how it is working / done.