New home energy quandry

I'm in the planning stages of building a 2000 sq ft home and I am trying to decide which is the best way to keep my new home warm and dry as cheaply as possible. Here are some of my thoughts

ACTIVE METHODS
Heating Oil-
PROS: easy to use, low maintenance, low startup cost, easy to find qualified repairmen, heats a house quickly
CONS: expensive, not enviromentally sound, subject to price fluctuations and taxes

Ground heat pump-
PROS: enviromentally sound, stable, lower monthly operating costs, Could be eligble for grant money
CONS: Very high startup costs, could take more than 10 years to recoup, Most parts of system are under warranty for a short period of time, If it breaks down it could involve digging up pipes, you have to use underfloor heating (see below), need a lot of land to lay pipes, can't install near tree roots, One major problem with system could wipe out all profits

Pellet boiler
PROS: Prices more stable than oil, Could be eligble for grant money, renewable resource, probably cheaper than oil, could install pellet stove to heat main area of house
CONS: Need large storage area for pellets, must haul ashes and load pellets, must be concerned with humidity of pellets, price could rise in future due to increased demand, Efficiency of stove is questioned by some

Wind turbine
PRO: enviromentally sound, free energy, Could be eligble for grant money
CONS: Expensive, turbines can be noisy, ugly, neighbors could object, no wind means no energy, low energy output per turbine

Solar (to heat water)
PRO: enviromentally sound, free energy, little maintenance, could be eligble for grant money
CONS: Expensive,ugly,could take many years to recoup investment, not enough sun, system could develop leak which could damage house.

Solar (photo voltaic)
Pro: enviromentally sound, free energy,no maintenance,could be eligble for grant money
Cons: Too expensive, not efficent enough. These systems don't make financial sense in California where its sunny most of the time, so they don't make sense in Ireland..maybe some day

PASSIVE METHODS
Timber frame house with upgraded insulation
Pro: Low startup costs that can be recoverd quickly, House erected more quickly, High efficiency compare to cement walls, The price of the upgraded insulation and weather stripping can be recouped in a few years
Con: The exterior walls need to be deeper than the average 2x4 walls to handle more insulation, which adds to cost. Must be waterproofed correctly or could rot

Dual paned windows
PROS: Most house lose 30% of their heat through window. Good windows could really cut fuel bills, storm windows in the winter months can also help. Buying low-E, argon gas windows can pay for themselves in less than five years
CONS: Good windows can be quite expensive

DELIVERY METHODS
Radiators
PROS: Not likely to leak, they heat quickly, low maintenance, no heat loss through floors
CONS: They heat just one corner of the room, they are unsightly

Underfloor heating (pipes)
PROS: feels great under your feet, cozy, it heats the whole room at one time vs. just one corner of the room.
CONS: Poor control of heat (heats too slowly), subject to leaks and pressure losses, when it leaks it can severly damage house, Most parts of system are under warranty for a short period of time, can be noisy, much heat is lost though layers of flooring, it could warp wood floors

Underfloor heating (electric)
PROS: feels great under your feet, cozy, it heats the whole room at one time vs. just one corner of the room, no water leaks under the floor
CONS: Poor control of heat (heats too slowly), Most parts of system are under warranty for a short period of time, much heat is lost though layers of flooring, it could warp wood floors


Natural Gas
not available in my area

After listing all these pros and cons I'm leaning toward (gasp..dare I say it) heating oil/radiator and a well insulated house with good windows. I think adding a wood pellet stove would be more efficent than a standard fireplace. I'll try and keep all my big windows facing south and I will design my entry ways with an extra door to stop gust of winds from entering the house.

I really wish I could invest in a alternative energy source but I feel these systems are just not there yet. All it would take is one major problem and all the cost savings go out the window (no pun intended)

I would love to hear other people's opinions

I'd question some of your "cons":

Solar water heating:
Not necessarily ugly, can be neatly put on roof.

There is one con you didn't mention though - solar heated water produces the maximum amount of heated water for the evening. Most people have showers in the morning. (Perhaps this can be partially remedied by good insulation of the tank).
Also consider laying pipes so that a solar collector can be installed at a later stage, without having to lay the pipes around the house - I believe there is a thread on that already.

I believe the most cost effective eco solution (excluding passive design and insulation) is heat recovery ventilation, which you haven't included:
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No doubt there'll be lots of comments about your quandry.

I've a comment on radiators heating just one corner of a room. This will only happen if you have hem badly placed.

Normally, there are positioned under a window. Warm air rises from radiator, hits cool air from window and so you have create an air currant that warms the whole room as it moves around. If a radiator has no cool air moving, the heat just rises and just warms one part of the room.

As for unsightly, there a newer designs that can look very funky. Or you can go for traditional but get a radiator cover for it. Also, you can get a termostat on it and can control the heat out put of individual radiator. E.g. warmer in sitting room but a bit cooler in bedrooms.

We are also looking into the options of heating a 2850ft house and we are close to deciding the medium we will use. It's looking more and more likely that it's gonna be a dual system - oil plus a solid fuel stove that heats radiators. The idea would be to have the oil on in the morning or when you need heat in a hurry etc. We would then get the stove going and run it as a complimentary system to oil. Will will try and heat most of our radiators downstairs on it as well a radiator in the upstairs hallway using the system. But if we are unable to light the stove for whatever reason, these radiators will also be able to be run on oil. Plus we plan to have our house well insulated. We have investigated all the options and payback time is a long time, plus the fact that the equipment for geo and underfloor may have to be replaced etc.... it seems like it's a little too much to be taking on.

Presumably if you were generating enough electricity through wind/hydro you could use it for an "electric boiler" to run your conventional central heating. (As opposed to taking out conventional rads and putting in storage heaters)

Anyone ever heard of same?

Also, I presume that multiple wind turbines gives a direct multiple of power (though of course may be more efficient to get 1 larger, plus still the problem that if no wind then all not working)

I have recently moved into my new 2800sq feet home with heat pump and underfloor heating upstairs and downstairs. After much research this combination is the most efficient and offers the greatest comfort, in my view. overall cost for supply and install-approx 22,500. I will be recieving the €4,300 grant soon, which brings the actual cost down to 18K. This is about 6k more than the cost of a traditional oil burner with rads. i am expecting to recoup that 6k in esb bills in approx 4 years at the most. I think there are many more plus's also-

Hi Kgrey, welcome to AAM. Please note our [broken link removed] forbid duplicate posting.
Leo

kgrey.....is the grant only 20%....thought it was 80%...I looked into same system when building timber frame last year and got quote for 20k..but no grant around then so went with soild fule stove with boiler for downstairs rads along with condensing oil boiler...I find this system works well and using very little oil, as the house is packed with insulation and keeps the heat.

As regards to your comment on wood pellets, as far as i'm aware the pellets are fed in automatically to the boiler and the amount of ash is minimal. Perhaps you are thinking of the wood pellet stove? These onlly heat one room as far as I know, I could be wrong though. With the stoves you do have to feed the pellets automatically but not with the boiler.

Have been reviewing the various heating systems also & am as confused as you are at this stage yank. Wood Pellet looks great but as I have posted proviously... I am suspicions about how sustainable the current wood pellet pricing will be!.

A version of 'something solar' has to be reviewe, but there are so many options out there that it is confusing.

I likewise find it difficult to get solid independant advice on what is the best as each company I talk to ....their one always happens to be the best!

Have to make decision on heating system as well and have the following query. If installing a geothermal system - will this be sufficient for hot water. Have already looked inro running in conjunction with Solar panels for water but have been recently advised by council that I wount get planning for solar panels. Any advice?

A poster named "Heinbloed" contributed relevant information on different heating and carbon-neutral solutions on this thread

Demps said:

Have to make decision on heating system as well and have the following query. If installing a geothermal system - will this be sufficient for hot water. Have already looked inro running in conjunction with Solar panels for water but have been recently advised by council that I wount get planning for solar panels. Any advice?

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We are using geothermal to heat our 3500 sq foot house and provide hot water 24/7 with no other backup systems (other than a built in immersion - which has never been switched on)

Hi qwerty, thanks for the feedback - Did You install Under Floor Heating with Your Geothermal and who did You purchase the geothermal system off

"Have already looked inro running in conjunction with Solar panels for water but have been recently advised by council that I wount get planning for solar panels."

Hi Qwerty,
The Dept of Environment is planning to remove the need for planning permission for solar panels. There is a press release on their website about it last week.

Yes, we are running UFH upstairs and downstairs in our house. We also have two towel rads in two bathrooms running of the HWC on a timer, but we only use them for 15 mins every now and then to dry towels/warm towels (I wouldn't imagine them to very efficient cost wise, but they are handy when you have no rads for drying a towel)

Used a company in Sligo called Enviromental Installations LTD, (www.eil.ie) They do really know there stuff, but not to quick to call back if there's a problem thou.

huskerdu said:

Hi Qwerty,
The Dept of Environment is planning to remove the need for planning permission for solar panels. There is a press release on their website about it last week.

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It was another poster that was interested in that, I believe they have also dropped the need for planning permission for Wind turbines.

Actually, is anyone here using solar panels? If so what kind of temperature is coming off them at this time of year? Having been discussing this with another poster we concluded that with Geothermal heating, solar panels will not justify the cost of installing them if they only supply the hot water for the summer months. Are hot water/heating costs for the whole summer were less than €100.

Excellent idea on the towel Rads. I hadnt considered them when thinking about UFH and drying of towells during winter. One last question on the UFH - how have You found it upstairs, did You install in all rooms in the house and did it impact on the construction/supports You needed between the lower and upper floors.

Thanks

Re: pellets and solar

theyank said:

Pellet boiler
PROS: Prices more stable than oil

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Prices have risen dramatically in the last year and the demand is still relatively low - it wouldn't take much to push demand in excess of supply.

Regarding solar water heating the time required to pay back the investment is greatly exagerrated by companies all over the world.

In Ireland we have about 1000kwH/m2/year of solar energy, say 45% of that is picked up by your solar collector, say you have 3 sq. m of panels. Thats a best case scenario of 1350kwh in a year.

To put that in perspective 1350 kw of
daytime electricity = about 195 euro
nightsaver = about 95 euro
kerosene = about 98 euro (80% boiler efficiency)
gas = 100 - 133 euro (80% boiler efficiency high committment user - low commitment user)

So basically best case scenario you save 200 euro a year in 10 years you've saved 2000 euro - now compare that with the cost of the installation of 3 sq m of solar panels and associated plumbing.

You can expect to payback your solar panels in 20-40 years at current prices.

Demps said:

Excellent idea on the towel Rads. I hadnt considered them when thinking about UFH and drying of towells during winter. One last question on the UFH - how have You found it upstairs, did You install in all rooms in the house and did it impact on the construction/supports You needed between the lower and upper floors.

Thanks

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Been as it so cheap to run, we leave the upstairs zones on all day as well as downstairs, this prevents the heat from downstairs going upstairs as another poster mentions and you don't have to wait for upstairs to heat up in the evenings.
We used hollowcore, which again I highly recommend for fire and noise.