new build planning twice turned down by ABP: neighbours objection based on false info

[DeBarr]

Hi

We have twice been turned down for planning for a new build by An Bord Pleanala on foot of objections from our neighbour - the council had approved both applications! and we have been trying for 4 years to build.

Our neighbour had given false information in his objections (long story but I don't want to go into too much detail in case he reads this) to both the Council and ABP and we have recently only uncovered proof that this is the case.

I am really annoyed about it and was wondering what to do about it. We have incurred significant cost for house plan rework, archeological surveys etc but this is not the big issue as far as I'm concerned - it is the priciple of the thing that I am annoyed about.

We have had to alter our plans to extend the house we are in (not ideal but we have settled for this in the end). Needless to say our neighbour objected again to the council and used the same false information again but we got our planning. He is well versed in planning regulations (demonstrated this in his objections) and I when I found out that the information was false and mentioned it to him last week he is now saying he won't go to ABP if I sign a letter in relation to this information. We have clear proff that he knew this information was wrong.

Apologies if this sounds cryptic but for obvious reasons I don't want to give too much away.

Any thoughts out there on what I should / could do? Any ideas would be much appreciated.

 

[Docarch]

Not really much you can do now about it.

First question would be was planning refused by ABP for reasons connected with the (false) information your neighbour provided/submitted? In addition, did the neighbour submit the same information as part of an observation/objection to the planning authority?

For the planning application stage of the project, you should have/could have seen the observation/objection? For the appeal stage, if your neighbour was the one to make the appeal, you would have recieved a copy of thier appeal and you would have had a right to reply? It is at this stage this (false) information should have been addressed.

I find it a bit odd that you seem to be only aware of the nature/grounds of your neighbours observations/objections/appeals after it was done and dusted?

As I said initially, not much can be done now about the already determined applications.

If you can refute the (false) information, and you intend to go for planning again, I would include this rebuttal as part of a written submission to accompany the application. If the (false) information is of a legal nature and you are sure it is not correct you could have a solicitor prepare a statutory declaration (basically a sworn statement) for you to accompany the application.

 

[onq]

Hi DeBarr,

Lodge the new information with An Bórd, include the supporting evidence supporting the position you know to be true and refer to the past submissions by the neighbour in your covering letter
I suggest you consider using an architect well-versed in planning law and/or a planning consultant to help prepare your Appeal drawings, documents and letter wording.
Make a special effort to show the correct position in drawings and photographs, assuming this is the nature of it.

I think it could be unwise to enter into any agreement with someone you suggest has already misrepresented your position.
However I would suggest you consider taking contemporaneous notes of anything such a person might say to you.

Make your case clearly and with supporting documents where possible.
Keep it short and simple.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matter at hand.

 

[csirl]

When people object to planning applications, they often include a lot of irrelevent extraneous information - often a personal attack on the applicant, and often including accusations.

This type of information is not used by the council or APB when determining whether permission is granted. Whether the building is appropriate for the site and conforms with the rules/guidelines in the Development Plan is what they consider.

Its difficult to see what type of false information supplied by an objector could lead to the overturing of a decision. The planners have copies of the building plans/documentation, so e.g. if someone lies says the applicant is building a 3 story house when only 2 story is allowed, consulting the plans will show its only 2 stories. Its possible that a third party may draw the ABP planners attention to something that was missed by the council, but again, this would have a factual basis which can be verified.

Can you enlighten us more as to the nature of the neighbours objections? Are they consistent with the reasons for refusal.

 

[Leo]

...he is now saying he won't go to ABP if I sign a letter in relation to this information.

Why should you have to sign something? What exactly is he looking for you to sign?

 

[DeBarr]

Hi all

Firstly thanks for taking the time to respond - it is very much appreciated.

The background is as follows:
Neighbour bought house from my in-laws along with a small landholding some years back. We retained adjoining 8 acre field after the sale with the intention of building (always open about it to neighbour) and discussed it with him many times in very friendly terms. We used to do favours for each other (mind dogs while away etc).

Once we started the build process however things changed.

2 new build applications granted by the council turned down by ABP on foot of objections. Neighbour objected at all stages to council and ABP.

Permission for an agricultural entrance (gate) granted to our field (where we were eventually hoping to build) - objected to by neighbour but did not go to ABP. The entrance was needed anyway to gain access to the field - we keep a pony in it during the summer months.

New application submitted for extension to existing house in which we are living (instead of new build in adjoining field). Granted by the council and the end of the 4 week period of objections to ABP is 2 weeks off.

The only planning objections received in all cases were from this one neighbour.

The real crux is there is a building literally just over the fence clsoe to our house and owned by the neighbour which has planning permission but for non-agricultural usage - this we only found out a couple of weeks back. The neighbour has consistently specified this building has agricultural planning in all objections over the 4 years we have been going through this but it actually doesn't have the required planning. Not only that but he uses it for agricultural purposes which his planning excludes.

We were not turned down by ABP specifically in relation to the supposed agricultural building but my view is neighbour has specifically mis-represented the status of the building in all submissions. When I raised the item of planning on his building two weeks ago, and after 4 years of torment from him, he is now nice as pie and suggesting that if I sign a letter that says I recognise the building as "agricultural" then he will not go to ABP and delay us but I don't trust him.

To be absolutley clear I'm not looking to overturn the previous rulings by ABP nor am I seeking retribution for all the grief but I get the feeling I and my family are being bullied by this guy for long enough and want to make a stand - as much for my own dignity and principles as anything else. I really just want to get on and enjoy my life - I have four kids and want to provide a home for them and not have this "undercurrent" of unpleasantness impact on our lives. My fear however is he has consistently lied to us, mispresented his position at all times and if we give him anything at all he will use it against us in the future e.g. I don't fancy pigs, livestock housed 3 metres from my house - for an agricultural building to be put within 100 metres of our house he needs our agreement according to planning guidelines.

So much for the dream build!!

Once again thanks for all the replies.

 

[ajapale]

Our neighbour had given false information in his objections to both the Council and ABP.

The real crux is there is a building literally just over the fence clsoe to our house and owned by the neighbour which has planning permission but for non-agricultural usage - this we only found out a couple of weeks back. The neighbour has consistently specified this building has agricultural planning in all objections over the 4 years we have been going through this but it actually doesn't have the required planning. Not only that but he uses it for agricultural purposes which his planning excludes.

So did your neighbour make any misrepresentations in his submission about your proposed development?

 

[DeBarr]

So did your neighbour make any misrepresentations in his submission about your proposed development?

Hi ajapale.

Yep he sure did on numerous counts but we rebutted them (successfully I would have thought). There was a lot of private stuff mentioned in his submissions and to mske sure we didn't stray "off topic" so to speak we hired the services of a planning consultant to help us formulate the responses - certainly ABP didn't seem to consider them.

Everything we submitted on all fronts was reviewed by a planning consultant - we wanted to make sure our responses focussed on just items that were relevant to the planning process.

There is a track record of this person behaving in a similar way with other people in the locality so I guess I'm not alone.

Anyway thanks for all the responses. I think at this stage I'll stand my ground and not sign anything.

DeBarr

 

[onq]

I'd be interested to learn how this turns out, so I'll ask you to consider updating this thread in due course DeBarr.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matter at hand.

 

[DeBarr]

I'd be interested to learn how this turns out, so I'll ask you to consider updating this thread in due course DeBarr.

Hi onq

Will do - I guess we have a two week wait to see where it will lead to. We always have to wait until the last day on which submissions are allowed as he always submits on the lst possible day........

DeBarr

 

[Seagull]

We were not turned down by ABP specifically in relation to the supposed agricultural building but my view is neighbour has specifically mis-represented the status of the building in all submissions. When I raised the item of planning on his building two weeks ago, and after 4 years of torment from him, he is now nice as pie and suggesting that if I sign a letter that says I recognise the building as "agricultural" then he will not go to ABP and delay us but I don't trust him.

Do it the other way round. Tell him if he raises any objections, you will report him to all the relevant authorities for unauthorised use of this building.

Based on your descriptions of his behaviour - do it anyway regardless.

 

[onq]

Hi onq

Will do - I guess we have a two week wait to see where it will lead to. We always have to wait until the last day on which submissions are allowed as he always submits on the lst possible day........

DeBarr

(nods)

Par for the course with serial complainants.
This was the reason for introducing the five week period from the date of lodgement within which Observations must be lodged.
I think this was also the reason for persevering with the €20 Observation fee in the face of opposition which suggested it was discriminatory to those on low incomes.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matter at hand.

 

[DeBarr]

Hi all

Latest is neighbour dropped in letter (while we were away at the kids Hallowe'en school disco) which he asked us to sign stating we were aware of the "current" usage of the building. I refused to sign it on the grounds that he has admitted in a previous objection that he is using it for agricultural purposes and was possibly intending to put livestock in there and given the fact it does not have planning for agricultural usage I could not in all consious say that I would be happy for him to breach planning regulations. In other words he would be putting me in an uncomfortable position in planning law terms. My guess is he was intending to use the letter as a "support" for a change in planning.

He now says he is going to ABP re our proposed extension so I said I would have to go to the planning enforcement section of the council to report unauthorised usage of the building. Last night his son was in the building scraping and washing the floors - they have recently kept poultry (including cockerals which kept waking the kids) in there - I guess he is trying to cover his tracks although we have loads of witnesses who have commented on the noise etc over the previous months.

Will keep this thread updated....

 

[Woodie]

Reading your lenghty submission I like to believe there is always two sides to a story. As posted elsewheer on this thread ABP will make a judgement based on planning issues and will have access to all the relevant records to make that decision.

I see there are some issues that could be the source of problems.... you say

The background is as follows:
Neighbour bought house from my in-laws along with a small landholding some years back.

You neighbour bought their small holding property from your family what exactly did they sell your neighbour. Was what was sold misrepresented? Maybe this is the source of your difficulty? Often is.

The real crux is there is a building literally just over the fence clsoe to our house and owned by the neighbour which has planning permission but for non-agricultural usage

Again did your family sell this building with your neighbour and he assumed he was buying one thing one thing and now you want to have it both ways? You say he bought a small holding, sounds agricultural to me especially if in rural setting.

We were not turned down by ABP specifically in relation to the supposed agricultural building but my view is neighbour has specifically mis-represented the status of the building in all submissions.

If you were not turned down by ABP in relation to the issues surrounding this this building, what were the reasons? My guess is that it had to be something more significant in relation to planning, maybe the site was simply not suitable. Also, if your family sold the building, surely you knew what you were selling and what you are building beside....it does not make sense...to me at least. I see more questions than answers here.

I really just want to get on and enjoy my life - I have four kids and want to provide a home for them and not have this "undercurrent" of unpleasantness impact on our lives. My fear however is he has consistently lied to us, mispresented his position at all times and if we give him anything at all he will use it against us in the future e.g. I don't fancy pigs, livestock housed 3 metres from my house - for an agricultural building to be put within 100 metres of our house he needs our agreement according to planning guidelines.

If something existing has planning then it has planning. It sounds like you want to have your cake and the rest. Sell to your neighbour and then build 3 metres from the building you sold, only to object to it's existance. Not the course to take for a quiet life. Are you totally sure you or your inlaws have not miffed off this neighbour in some other way.

If I was in your neighbour's shoes I'd be suspicious from what I read of your intentions. If you want a quiet life why would you want to build 3 meters from such potential for problems, especially beside a building that has any potential for inductrial or agricultural use?

 

[DeBarr]

Hi Woodie

Thanks for taking the time to post. I've responded to some of the items below to add more clarity.

You neighbour bought their small holding property from your family what exactly did they sell your neighbour. Was what was sold misrepresented? Maybe this is the source of your difficulty? Often is.

No. This is not the case. The contract of sale was very clear as to usage as was the planning granted to it when it was built. I've read both in great detail over the last number of weeks.

Again did your family sell this building with your neighbour and he assumed he was buying one thing one thing and now you want to have it both ways? You say he bought a small holding, sounds agricultural to me especially if in rural setting.

No again the contract was clear. The holding is related to the bloodstock industry and this building is related to specialist activities related to that industry which is fine by us - it has not caused us any issues in the last 7 years but some months back it is being used for housing animals, poultry etc. It is not for housing livestock etc.

If you were not turned down by ABP in relation to the issues surrounding this this building, what were the reasons? My guess is that it had to be something more significant in relation to planning, maybe the site was simply not suitable. Also, if your family sold the building, surely you knew what you were selling and what you are building beside....it does not make sense...to me at least. I see more questions than answers here.

The two times we were turned down was for a house well away from this building. The site passed all environmental and other planning concerns. The first time we were turned down was due to local housing need (despite all of our children christened and going to school locally and my wife from the area for 25+ years). In the second application we addressed all of these issues. The second time was based on site suitability (same site!) however all relvant (and up-to-date) tests/guidelines were passed. Our planning consultant trains ABP inspectors and he was absolutley stunned it was turned down - he was so disgusted he forfeited his fee. The site was inspected during a public holiday - inpector's partner and young kids were in the car and spent at most 10 minutes at the site.

If something existing has planning then it has planning. It sounds like you want to have your cake and the rest. Sell to your neighbour and then build 3 metres from the building you sold, only to object to it's existance. Not the course to take for a quiet life. Are you totally sure you or your inlaws have not miffed off this neighbour in some other way.

I think you missed the point. As mentioned above we were to build well away from this building so there was no issue - both times we got planning but ABP turned it down on foot of the neighbour's objection. It is the pre-existing house we are in now which we have to extend (as our last option to stay in the area) which is 3 metres away from the building. Our neighbour suggested we utilise this building itself in his previous objections. The neighbour has also objected to this extension but in his objection stated the building 3 metres away was sold as and has planing for agricultural usage which it categorically does not. If you read the above we're not objecting to its existence - merely to its usage in terms of the planning granted to it.

If I was in your neighbour's shoes I'd be suspicious from what I read of your intentions. If you want a quiet life why would you want to build 3 meters from such potential for problems, especially beside a building that has any potential for inductrial or agricultural use?

Again I'm not trying to "build" 3 metres from his building - I'm trying to modestly extend the existing house already there - the entension will be further away from his building than the existing house.

 

[onq]

Can I jump back in and say that with your history DeBarr, I would be tempted to apply for what you want.
Then, having dealt with all outstanding issues as you seem to suggest you have done, go to Appeal.

Then if I were you I would stand prepared to take it to judicial review and apply with this in mind.
Set out your intention to do this from the outset and cover yourself backwards on all issues.

Its hard to avoid the suggestion that someone is not right in An Bórd Pleanála on this one.
Get some costings and planning/legal advice before you go anywhere near this though.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matter at hand.

 

[Woodie]

Hi DeBarr, I think I understand your point now bit better now. There are two separate issues

As mentioned above we were to build well away from this building so there was no issue - both times we got planning but ABP turned it down on foot of the neighbour's objection. It is the pre-existing house we are in now which we have to extend (as our last option to stay in the area) which is 3 metres away from the building.

I can undertand your frustration regarding the ABP but their decisions are based on the full planning record and the inspectors report while a contributor can be ignored in part or in full by the board in their decision. What I mean is the board decision and reasons for it will be the final determination. Whilst not unheard of I can not imagine a board decision based solely on the issue of local housing need.

Correct me if I am wrong but I see your real problem now is you want to extend a

pre-existing house we are in now which we have to extend (as our last option to stay in the area) which is 3 metres away from the building.

If I read correctly, you now have this planning permission for this existing building and really don't want it to go to ABP given your past experience in that arena.

As you state the

The contract of sale was very clear as to usage as was the planning granted to it when it was built.

then you should have no problems reassuring your neighbour that you will respect the precise existing planning permission. This undertaking would be in your favour if your neighbour ends up going to ABP which I undertand is your concern.

As you are confident of the exact planning that is in place then any significant material change of use to this building should require a new planning permission, so you are protected.

Experience has shown me that in these issues people get entrenched in different positions and a bit of diplomacy and give can do wonders. Of course it has to be on both sides if that is possible.

Let us know how it goes.