And if nobody fought the totalitarian dictatorships their children and grandchildren would still live under them. That is unless your father in law and his brother were eventually worked to death in a slave labour camp. Thankfully enough people are brave enough to fight back and don't sit back and let others die to protect their freedom, like we do here in Ireland.I would yes.
I have known many people who lived under a totalitarian dictatorship. My parents in law lived under Nazi occupation for 5 years. My mother in law was a nurse, working in a hospital. Certainly she resented the German occupation, and the fate of the Jewish families in her home village haunted her, these were people she knew, not just people she read about. But during that time she lived her life, restricted though it was, she took care of her grandmother, she met her friends, she did the things people in their early 20s do. The worst thing she personally suffered was lack of food in the winter of 1945.
My father in law worked in the harbour when the war broke out. Unlike his future wife he worked under direct German supervision, with armed soldiers patrolling. He resented that too, but again he lived, and I don't mean that he survived the war I mean that he spent the 5 years living his life. At one stage he was put on a train to be taken to Germany to work. His mother challenged this and he was released. His brother was not so lucky, he spent 15 months as a slave worker in Germany. He survived, returned home and his kids and grand kids are around to tell the tale.
I have a Polish friend whose mother lived under Russian occupation as a child. They had a Russian soldier billeted in their house, he was very young and afraid, terrified that they would kill him in his sleep. He was amazed by how wealthy they were. In fact even by the standards of 1940s Poland they were poor peasants, they had a packed earth floor in their house. But they had chickens and pigs and ate meat daily. That made them rich in his eyes.
Plenty fought to liberate Poland from Nazi Germany. If they hadn't then Poland, and the rest of Europe, would still be under their control... and we'd have been wipes out as an inferior race... even if we didn't fight back.No one fought to liberate Poland from the Russians. Lech Walensa's parents lived through Nazi and Russian occupation.
I am not for a moment disputing the bravery of the Poles who fought against the Nazis. In fact there were units of the Polish army active in Poland right through the war. But they didn't liberate the country and they had no influence on the outcome of the war.Plenty fought to liberate Poland from Nazi Germany. If they hadn't then Poland, and the rest of Europe, would still be under their control... and we'd have been wipes out as an inferior race... even if we didn't fight back.
thats because the russian soldier had already experienced the food shortages and famines under russian communism, the polish were then just entering enforced communism. By the 1980s Poland had got its full dose of russian communism, with food qeues and shortages, that is why the solidarity movement was in full flow and Poland was fighting to break out of the iron curtain.They had a Russian soldier billeted in their house, he was very young and afraid, terrified that they would kill him in his sleep. He was amazed by how wealthy they were. In fact even by the standards of 1940s Poland they were poor peasants, they had a packed earth floor in their house. But they had chickens and pigs and ate meat daily. That made them rich in his eyes.
I would yes.
I have known many people who lived under a totalitarian dictatorship. My parents in law lived under Nazi occupation for 5 years. My mother in law was a nurse, working in a hospital. Certainly she resented the German occupation, and the fate of the Jewish families in her home village haunted her, these were people she knew, not just people she read about. But during that time she lived her life, restricted though it was, she took care of her grandmother, she met her friends, she did the things people in their early 20s do. The worst thing she personally suffered was lack of food in the winter of 1945.
My father in law worked in the harbour when the war broke out. Unlike his future wife he worked under direct German supervision, with armed soldiers patrolling. He resented that too, but again he lived, and I don't mean that he survived the war I mean that he spent the 5 years living his life. At one stage he was put on a train to be taken to Germany to work. His mother challenged this and he was released. His brother was not so lucky, he spent 15 months as a slave worker in Germany. He survived, returned home and his kids and grand kids are around to tell the tale.
I have a Polish friend whose mother lived under Russian occupation as a child. They had a Russian soldier billeted in their house, he was very young and afraid, terrified that they would kill him in his sleep. He was amazed by how wealthy they were. In fact even by the standards of 1940s Poland they were poor peasants, they had a packed earth floor in their house. But they had chickens and pigs and ate meat daily. That made them rich in his eyes.
So would I rather my kids die on a beach or be forced to learn pro-Russian history at school. No hesitation as far as I'm concerned.
I didn't saw it was Poles who fought. I said people fought (okay men fought) and died to free them. That said the Poles who could did fight did, for example the Polish pilots who wo the Battle of Britain or the 195,000 Polish who fought in the Polish armed forces in the West or Polskie Siły Zbrojne na Zachodzie. That was Polish forces fighting as part of a broader military alliance to liberate their country, something that they could not have achieved on their own.I am not for a moment disputing the bravery of the Poles who fought against the Nazis. In fact there were units of the Polish army active in Poland right through the war. But they didn't liberate the country and they had no influence on the outcome of the war.
Polish soldiers made a big contribution to the US and UK armies. I still would not want my kids to end up in the mud of some future Monte Casino. Then Churchill sent the survivors back to Stalin. What were they fighting for again.
There was a Civil War in Poland after the War, far bigger than our Civil War. The communist forces were utterly brutal and killed and deported tens of thousands of their countrymen. It was a tragedy and a betrayal of the Polish people by their former allies.Actually it is not true that no one fought to liberate Poland from the Russians. There was an anti communist struggle into the 1950s. All they suceeded in doing was getting themselves and their neighbours killed.
No I am encouraging you NOT to fight if Putin lands 20,000 troops in Banna.So do you accept that sometimes men have to fight to protect their freedom and the freedom of their country from tyranny? If so is it that you advocate others fighting and dying on our behalf?
The vast majority did get on with their lives. There was nothing inherently noble about those that fought communism in Poland after the war. They were willing to fight for their vision, so what. Most people just wanted peace.There was a Civil War in Poland after the War, far bigger than our Civil War. The communist forces were utterly brutal and killed and deported tens of thousands of their countrymen. It was a tragedy and a betrayal of the Polish people by their former allies.
Stalin's puppet government committed mass murders of the anti Nazi Polish Resistance fighters who had in turn resisted the Russian invasion but surrendered to the puppet government on the guarantee that they would not be arrested or mistreated. Instead they were tortured then deported or murdered. The Second Katyn was the mass murder of over a thousand such prisoners in 1945 (the first Katyn massacre was the mass murder of almost 22,000 Polish officers by the Russians in 1940).
I wouldn't describe that as people just getting on with their lives.
If only there was some sort of military alliance that they could have joined to formally protect them and obligate their allies to act on their behalf.
You are using the word 'fighting' here in a very different sense.thats because the russian soldier had already experienced the food shortages and famines under russian communism, the polish were then just entering enforced communism. By the 1980s Poland had got its full dose of russian communism, with food qeues and shortages, that is why the solidarity movement was in full flow and Poland was fighting to break out of the iron curtain.
I don't think this is impossible at all. Priti Patel was quite explicit about the threat. It is what we should do about it that I am thinking about.We are very naive to think that Europe will always remain democratic and nice, what if a populist leader ala Trump or even a Putin like figure (although Putin is a distinctly russian creation) gets into power in the UK, what if they use the Putin logic for taking control of the whole country again using the pretext of the "British people" in the north as the pretext,
I think this is both unrealistic and undesirable.Ireland with a strong military and strong military alliances with europe would make that untenanable,
On that we disagree.No I am encouraging you NOT to fight if Putin lands 20,000 troops in Banna.
If you do lots of people will call you a hero, but they will be mostly people who are glad to repay your suffering with words.
I will say you are a fool. The Fool https://celt.ucc.ie/published/E950004-023.html (scroll down for text)
You will have no say, because you will be dead.
Edited
And let's not forget what Russia did with that 'peace' in Poland. They plundered Eastern Europe as a colony and manpower pool with which to threaten Western Europe and the world. That is Russia's plan for Ukraine too. Look at how it conscripted those in the annexed regions to send as cannon fodder against Ukraine. Ukraine leaving Russia's economic orbit, instead trading with the EU, prospering and forming a bulwark along with Poland against Russian revanchism represents a significant Russian foreign policy defeat.On that we disagree.
I don’t think it’s desirable to surrender to tyrants.
I do think that freedom and democracy are worth fighting for. I’d fight so that my children and their children were not slaves.
So I’d fight against a totalitarian Russian regime but, for example, I wouldn’t fight against British rule if I lived in Northern Ireland.
There were many issues with the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe during the Cold War, plunder was not one of them. Living standards were higher in East Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia than in Russia.They plundered Eastern Europe as a colony and manpower pool with which to threaten Western Europe and the world
Tricky that when you must decide when you must fight and when not.On that we disagree.
I don’t think it’s desirable to surrender to tyrants.
I do think that freedom and democracy are worth fighting for. I’d fight so that my children and their children were not slaves.
So I’d fight against a totalitarian Russian regime but, for example, I wouldn’t fight against British rule if I lived in Northern Ireland.
Were they higher than in the Europeanized parts of Russia? Russia is a vast country.There were many issues with the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe during the Cold War, plunder was not one of them. Living standards were higher in East Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia than in Russia.
I am not sure what you mean about manpower pool.
(Living Standards) Yes they were.Were they higher than in the Europeanized parts of Russia?
I have never heard anyone say this before, what are you basing it on.The Soviet system was setup to plunder Eastern Europe in the sense of directing its economic output to serve its ends
I never said there was nothing noble about Poles wanting their freedom from that system.To argue that there was nothing noble about Poles wanting their freedom from such a system, and in the circumstances of post-war, taking up arms to do so - is advocating surrender to tyranny.
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