managment companies re_apartment blocks

[galway_blow_in]

i understand from reading the MUD act that a unit holder automatically becomes a member of the managment company upon taking ownership of an apartment unit , however , its the directors of the company who sign off on the budget each year , i know that each member is entitled to attend the AGM , can each member ask to view the cost breakdown in terms of refuse , insurance , landscaping etc

there does seem to be a slight complacency when it comes to seeking value , i hear people talk about 300 euro for refuse collection per unit , i live out in rural ireland and i pay 300 euro per year to have two bins collected every fortnight , in an urban setting , it would be less than this , in a situation where a service provider is able to collect perhaps fifty bins from a development , the costs should be much less again

 

[alexandra123]

I pay 300 per year for our management companies services. It does not include the collection of bins. Every year we get a breakdown of what was spent and how much is left. Ideally you should get a copy every year. I think you are entitled to it

 

[galway_blow_in]

I pay 300 per year for our management companies services. It does not include the collection of bins. Every year we get a breakdown of what was spent and how much is left. Ideally you should get a copy every year. I think you are entitled to it

got it yesterday , 240 euro per unit per anum for bin collection last year , i get two bins collected in rural ireland for 300 euro per anum , city collection service should be much cheaper , especially in an apartment development

managment company wants to raise fees to 1200 euro for the coming year , ive a two bed in a development which has no lift , my units on the ground floor

 

[trasneoir]

managment company wants to raise fees to 1200 euro for the coming year , ive a two bed in a development which has no lift , my units on the ground floor

I'd quibble about value more than price. Management and maintenance makes the world of difference for the medium term desirability/value of an apartment development.

 

[Leo]

got it yesterday , 240 euro per unit per anum for bin collection last year , i get two bins collected in rural ireland for 300 euro per anum , city collection service should be much cheaper , especially in an apartment development

In my experience of apartment dwelling, people seem to be a lot less discerning and dump a lot more when there's a collective charge like that per unit.

If you're involved with the MC, you could suggest shopping around, but perhaps they already do and that's the best offer available.

 

[Sarenco]

€1,200 looks about right to me as a service charge for a 2-bed apartment in a block with no lift. If anything, it looks a bit on the low side but the size and specifics of the particular development are obviously relevant.

Under the MUD Act, OMC service charges have to be transparent and fairly apportioned. I would have thought it was standard practice at this stage for all OMC members to receive a detailed breakdown of the projected expenditure for the year ahead.

The managing agent's fee would typically be around 10% of the overall budgeted expenditure (although it may represent a higher proportion of overall expenditure in a smaller block).

I would suggest you keep a close eye on the level of the development's sinking fund - the general recommendation is to maintain a fund equivalent to one year's expenditure.

 

[Sarenco]

Incidentally, under the MUD Act, the members (not just the Directors) of the OMC in general meeting have to approve the annual service charge.

 

[galway_blow_in]

In my experience of apartment dwelling, people seem to be a lot less discerning and dump a lot more when there's a collective charge like that per unit.

If you're involved with the MC, you could suggest shopping around, but perhaps they already do and that's the best offer available.

you hear so many stories about contracts being awarded to relatives of the directors off the managment company etc , i doubt value for money is a huge priority for too many of them , their is a cultural acceptance of high cost managment fees in this country

 

[galway_blow_in]

Incidentally, under the MUD Act, the members (not just the Directors) of the OMC in general meeting have to approve the annual service charge.

only 75% of the members , il be voting against a rise in fees and pushing for a reduction , im new so i doubt il manage to lobby many to vote no , irish people in general dont like to question prices

 

[Sarenco]

only 75% of the members , il be voting against a rise in fees and pushing for a reduction , im new so i doubt il manage to lobby many to vote no , irish people in general dont like to question prices

The Act actually provides that a service charge shall not be levied in respect of any period unless it has been considered by a general meeting of the members concerned, which includes the consideration of an estimate of the expenditure it is anticipated will be incurred by the company in that period. Where the service charge proposed to the general meeting is disapproved by not less than 75 per cent of the persons present and voting, the proposed service charge shall not take effect but the charge applying to the previous period shall continue to apply pending the adoption of a service charge in respect of the period concerned.

In other words, 75% of members present at the general meeting have to actually vote against the proposed service charge - the OMC doesn't need 75% of members to actually approve the amount of the charge.

As a matter of curiosity, do you have a problem with a specific item of the projected expenditure on behalf of your OMC or are you intending to vote against the budgeted expenditure as a matter of principle?

 

[galway_blow_in]

The Act actually provides that a service charge shall not be levied in respect of any period unless it has been considered by a general meeting of the members concerned, which includes the consideration of an estimate of the expenditure it is anticipated will be incurred by the company in that period. Where the service charge proposed to the general meeting is disapproved by not less than 75 per cent of the persons present and voting, the proposed service charge shall not take effect but the charge applying to the previous period shall continue to apply pending the adoption of a service charge in respect of the period concerned.

In other words, 75% of members present at the general meeting have to actually vote against the proposed service charge - the OMC doesn't need 75% of members to actually approve the amount of the charge.

As a matter of curiosity, do you have a problem with a specific item of the projected expenditure on behalf of your OMC or are you intending to vote against the budgeted expenditure as a matter of principle?

ive already said i think the charges for bin collection are excessive , i also think 1200 per year is too expensive for a development with no lift or electric gates , i accept its more difficult to persuade others on this one however

 

[Sarenco]

ive already said i think the charges for bin collection are excessive , i also think 1200 per year is too expensive for a development with no lift or electric gates , i accept its more difficult to persuade others on this one however

Fair enough.

I've no idea whether or not the provision for refuse collection is excessive in your particular area but I assume you have a good reason for your opinion.

I have been involved with a number of OMCs through the years and an annual service charge of €1,200 looks pretty reasonable to me for a 2-bed apartment in a block with no lift but, again, I'm sure you have a good reason for your view that it's excessive in your particular case.

Have you considered seeking a nomination to the OMC's board of directors?

 

[so-crates]

got it yesterday , 240 euro per unit per anum for bin collection last year , i get two bins collected in rural ireland for 300 euro per anum , city collection service should be much cheaper , especially in an apartment development

managment company wants to raise fees to 1200 euro for the coming year , ive a two bed in a development which has no lift , my units on the ground floor

Exactly how cheap do you expect waste collection to be? Have you checked around the local providers to find out? €240 pa does not sound excessive, as for your price comparison to your rural collection that works out 20% cheaper. It is probably not going to be considerably cheaper than that.

What level are they raising it from? What is the current management charge?

What grounds have the management company given for raising the fee? Insurance costs increase? Insufficient sinking fund (this is definitely an issue for quite a large number of developments around the country - you'd be very short-sighted to vote down the increase if this is the reason behind it)? Is the company fully funded? Is there any issue with collecting the existing charges? Simply saying "€1200 is too high" is not justification of your position. You need to challenge the breakdown on sensible grounds. As above, I don't think your reckoning on the cost of the waste service, for example, holds up to scrutiny.

you hear so many stories about contracts being awarded to relatives of the directors off the managment company etc , i doubt value for money is a huge priority for too many of them , their is a cultural acceptance of high cost managment fees in this country

Casting slurs on the directors of your management company is hardly likely to be productive. Do you have reason to believe that any of the stories you refer to apply in your case? Have you been actively involved in the company to date or suddenly becoming interested because they have proposed an increase the charge? If you think there is a problem or the directors are acting inappropriately then you need to get involved and be active. Simply shouting down the suggested charge is neither useful nor helpful. Bear in mind, all of the directors are also apartment owners - they are all looking at the same increase as you - do you really think they have no interest in keeping costs down?

 

[galway_blow_in]

Exactly how cheap do you expect waste collection to be? Have you checked around the local providers to find out? €240 pa does not sound excessive, as for your price comparison to your rural collection that works out 20% cheaper. It is probably not going to be considerably cheaper than that.

What level are they raising it from? What is the current management charge?

What grounds have the management company given for raising the fee? Insurance costs increase? Insufficient sinking fund (this is definitely an issue for quite a large number of developments around the country - you'd be very short-sighted to vote down the increase if this is the reason behind it)? Is the company fully funded? Is there any issue with collecting the existing charges? Simply saying "€1200 is too high" is not justification of your position. You need to challenge the breakdown on sensible grounds. As above, I don't think your reckoning on the cost of the waste service, for example, holds up to scrutiny.



Casting slurs on the directors of your management company is hardly likely to be productive. Do you have reason to believe that any of the stories you refer to apply in your case? Have you been actively involved in the company to date or suddenly becoming interested because they have proposed an increase the charge? If you think there is a problem or the directors are acting inappropriately then you need to get involved and be active. Simply shouting down the suggested charge is neither useful nor helpful. Bear in mind, all of the directors are also apartment owners - they are all looking at the same increase as you - do you really think they have no interest in keeping costs down?

common sense tells me that an urban waste collection service should be cheaper than a rural waste collection service , anywhere you have a residence every few meters is going to cost less than where houses are dotted every half mile , in an apartment development , there may be fifty residences within a very concentrated area

their is a history of over charging in this country and a complacency amongst the public when it comes to being aware of being over charged , i wont be told to sit down about this , we are coming out of a recession period which was largely tied to property , i dont want to see us slip back into old habits , just because people were happy to pay 1200 euro in managment fees on a 250 k apartment in 2006 doesnt mean they should be happy to fork out 1200 on the same apartment today which is valued at 120 k

 

[Ceist Beag]

common sense tells me that an urban waste collection service should be cheaper than a rural waste collection service , anywhere you have a residence every few meters is going to cost less than where houses are dotted every half mile , in an apartment development , there may be fifty residences within a very concentrated area

their is a history of over charging in this country and a complacency amongst the public when it comes to being aware of being over charged , i wont be told to sit down about this , we are coming out of a recession period which was largely tied to property , i dont want to see us slip back into old habits , just because people were happy to pay 1200 euro in managment fees on a 250 k apartment in 2006 doesnt mean they should be happy to fork out 1200 on the same apartment today which is valued at 120 k

So in other words you don't have a clue whether urban waste collection is actually cheaper to run than rural waste collection ... you just think it should be! How about you do a bit of research before you make bald statements. Do you know how the cost of providing these services is broken down? If you compare urban and rural, the only difference you have highlighted is the distance between collection points. Are you sure the travel costs are high and where would they come when compared with the staff costs, costs of the trucks and maintenance of same, and the costs of handling the waste? Your contributions to this thread to date have been slightly hysterical without any evidence to back up your assertions so maybe it's time you took a step back and tried to compile some evidence to back up your claims.

 

[so-crates]

common sense tells me that an urban waste collection service should be cheaper than a rural waste collection service , anywhere you have a residence every few meters is going to cost less than where houses are dotted every half mile , in an apartment development , there may be fifty residences within a very concentrated area

"Common sense" carries little weight as an argument and it rarely is common sense. It is far more likely to be personal opinion dressed up as "fact". Calling each of the waste companies in Galway and getting a quote for waste collection and seeing what is actually available is an argument - if you manage to find a provider to do it for whatever figure you have in mind (I notice that you don't actually answer a single one of my questions by the way)

Your argument that it is cheaper based purely on the area you have to cover presumes that a very large proportion of the cost is in time and fuel. Undoubtedly you would expect it to be cheaper and you have demonstrated that it is (300pa compared to 240pa) - the question is is 240pa (€20pm) reasonable. I suspect it is - you maintain it isn't without providing any evidence to back that up other than "common sense". Do the homework, ring the service providers, get the quotes, then make a reasoned and well-founded argument instead of simply offering personal opinion. And unless you are anticipating it coming in €100 cheaper I don't see how you can possibly argue that waste charges are the weightiest element of the service charge

their is a history of over charging in this country and a complacency amongst the public when it comes to being aware of being over charged , i wont be told to sit down about this , we are coming out of a recession period which was largely tied to property , i dont want to see us slip back into old habits , just because people were happy to pay 1200 euro in managment fees on a 250 k apartment in 2006 doesnt mean they should be happy to fork out 1200 on the same apartment today which is valued at 120 k

Apartment value is of no consideration when it comes to the management charge. The management charge is related to the cost of maintaining and insuring the property and running any shared services, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the present or past cost of the purchase. It is immaterial how much you paid. It is immaterial how much the value of the property has dropped. Simply because the property is now worth less does not mean it costs any less to maintain or insure. In fact, insurance premia have increased this year and not by a trivial amount either. And as I already pointed out, most sinking funds are too small, or worse, non-existent. More than one managing company has had to increase the service charge on these two issues alone.

No-one is telling you to sit down. In fact completely the opposite. I am telling you to step up. I am telling you to do your homework. Look at the costs seriously. Ask what has gone up and why. And then look at how you can suggest a better option. Going in crying fie and offering no useful contribution is of no value to you or the rest of your management company.

 

[facetious]

only 75% of the members , il be voting against a rise in fees and pushing for a reduction , im new so i doubt il manage to lobby many to vote no , irish people in general dont like to question prices

(4) (a) The proposal in relation to the setting of an annual service charge may be amended at the meeting referred to in
subsection (2) with the approval of 60 per cent of those present and voting at the meeting.

(b) Where the service charge proposed to the general meeting is disapproved by not less than 75 per cent of the persons
present and voting, the proposed service charge shall not take effect but the charge applying to the previous period
shall continue to apply pending the adoption of a service charge in respect of the period concerned.

 

[galway_blow_in]

"Common sense" carries little weight as an argument and it rarely is common sense. It is far more likely to be personal opinion dressed up as "fact". Calling each of the waste companies in Galway and getting a quote for waste collection and seeing what is actually available is an argument - if you manage to find a provider to do it for whatever figure you have in mind (I notice that you don't actually answer a single one of my questions by the way)

Your argument that it is cheaper based purely on the area you have to cover presumes that a very large proportion of the cost is in time and fuel. Undoubtedly you would expect it to be cheaper and you have demonstrated that it is (300pa compared to 240pa) - the question is is 240pa (€20pm) reasonable. I suspect it is - you maintain it isn't without providing any evidence to back that up other than "common sense". Do the homework, ring the service providers, get the quotes, then make a reasoned and well-founded argument instead of simply offering personal opinion. And unless you are anticipating it coming in €100 cheaper I don't see how you can possibly argue that waste charges are the weightiest element of the service charge



Apartment value is of no consideration when it comes to the management charge. The management charge is related to the cost of maintaining and insuring the property and running any shared services, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the present or past cost of the purchase. It is immaterial how much you paid. It is immaterial how much the value of the property has dropped. Simply because the property is now worth less does not mean it costs any less to maintain or insure. In fact, insurance premia have increased this year and not by a trivial amount either. And as I already pointed out, most sinking funds are too small, or worse, non-existent. More than one managing company has had to increase the service charge on these two issues alone.

No-one is telling you to sit down. In fact completely the opposite. I am telling you to step up. I am telling you to do your homework. Look at the costs seriously. Ask what has gone up and why. And then look at how you can suggest a better option. Going in crying fie and offering no useful contribution is of no value to you or the rest of your management company.

i did not buy the property at the peak of the market , i only bought it quite recently , i made the comment on former peak property valuations within the context of accepted high prices back in the day , i think most people are more cost conscious today

 

[Sarenco]

If you do think any particular line item in the budget looks excessive then why not post it here? I'm sure posters would be more than happy to express an opinion as to whether or not it looks reasonable or excessive from their own experiences and this will at least give you a basis for further research if appropriate.

I'm sure you are absolutely correct in saying that people are more price conscious today than may have been the case at the height of the credit bubble. I think it would actually be valuable if people traded opinions as to what might be a reasonable charge for a particular service, in a particular context.

 

[Leo]

i only bought it quite recently

Then would have been a good time to assess service charges / value.