Local council insisting that grave can only be transferred in to one name on inheritance.

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Grizzly

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Our parents have died. They owned their grave. There are 4 of us. We have all inherited equally. Simple will everything to be divided equally.
All the assets at this stage have been divided equally between the 4 of us.
We recently decided to regularise the ownership of the grave by having it transferred in to our 4 names. We have contacted our local council who manage the cemetery and said that we wanted it transferred in to our 4 names. They refused. They said that it can only be transferred into one name.
The form that they gave us seems to suggest that it can be transferred into new owners rather than a single owner. When questioned the spokesperson said that the wording owners rather than owner is because a spouse can have rights also, so owners mean one person with spouse.
Does anyone know the legal position about this?
If the will had specifically said that the ownership of the grave was to be transferred into the 4 named people, would the council have to transfer it in to the 4 named people or could they have overridden the wishes of the owner and insisted that it be transferred into one name.
 
The council do not exist to carry out the wishes of the testator. They have their rules and procedures. How about the siblings vote on putting it into one name, or draw straws. This is going to get really desparate when there is a single grave to be used between 20 grandchildren. My BIL marked out his grave when the whole village was fighting about space, happily for him he got buried there as unfortunately he died before his time.
 
I am looking for the legal position here. An estate can leave X amount to one child and Y amount to another child. It can ask for a house to be sold with X of the proceeds left to the cats and dogs home. The executor will carry out the wishes of the deceased. However if a person makes a will leaving their grave to 4 children it seems that the executor cannot carry out that duty nor can the wishes of the deceased be granted. So it appears that the council can override a legal grant of probate?
 
I think you are putting a lot of weight on the meaning of "legal grant of probate". When the will was being drawn up and your parents put their wishes in the will of leaving ownership of the grave to all 4 of you they obviously were not aware of the rules regarding ownership of a grave. A sit down chat between all 4 of you is the only best way you can sort this.
 
mf1 said:
Oh. Dear. God. In. Heaven............

mf
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I take it you haven't had the delight of a case like this before. Happily it hasn't landed on your door to solve. But it's only a matter of time.

Perhaps you'd better advise those drawing up a will to sort out the ownership of the grave issue if they are leaving everything equally. You can be the first to draft such a special clause. You can set a precedent.
 
Unfair response to MF1.

You seem to think that because something is included in a will it can over-ride anything, that's simply not the case. Bronte pointed out a solution. But go ahead and take on the council rather than come to an agreement with your siblings.
 
dereko1969 said:
Unfair response to MF1.

You seem to think that because something is included in a will it can over-ride anything, that's simply not the case. Bronte pointed out a solution. But go ahead and take on the council rather than come to an agreement with your siblings.
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No. I have no intention of taking on the local council. It seems that I should according to you follow another posters advice and draw straws to decide who should take ownership of our parents grave. That's a great idea. Thanks dereko1969 excellent advice as always.
 
Grizzly said:
No. I have no intention of taking on the local council. It seems that I should according to you follow another posters advice and draw straws to decide who should take ownership of our parents grave. That's a great idea.
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I wasn't joking when I suggested that to you. It is a solution after all, in my own families case, not the grave, we didn't even think of that ! we voted on everthing to do with the funeral and as to who does what etc.

I have another solution for you, how about you four each buy your own plot, are you all living in the same locality and intend to use that graveyard? Does a plot allow so many people, here you only 'own' the plot for a certain amount of time and only a certain amount of bodies can be buried.

Think about the future, it is a sad fact that grief doesn't help one being logical. But are both your parents buried in the same plot their four parents were buried in. What if one of the four siblings husband/wife decides not to allow buriel in the parents plot. These things happen. Are the husband/wife of the four siblings also going to be buried in the same spot.

I would suggest that if one sibling lives in the locality, it is that sibling who should get the plot.
 
T McGibney said:
From boards.ie http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70156782
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Just a comment on this, in our own case we needed to find the grave and found out it was owned by my father, (via the councy council, very helpful grave manager and strangely enough the undertaker who had done the buriel many moons ago knew the plot - sad case) he bought and paid for a double plot, nobody of course has a receipt, but it is my understanding that as it is his name in the records he owns it. What is on the records is the legal owner. Not sure if we will have a battle over who gets buried there, but happily it won't be an issue for me as I'm getting cremated and probably all of my siblings too, but you never know !
 
Bronte. Have you actually read my opening post or is your mind reading something else?

We simply want ownership of the grave transferred in to our 4 names. That's it, nothing more. We are not fighting about who will get buried there in the future. Everything else to do with the burial has been sorted. You seem to think that there is something else going on. Everybody who has passed a comment seems to think that there is more to this. There's not.

The council insist that under their rules the ownership of a grave can only be transferred into one person's name. There are two forms to fill out and one of these has to be sworn before a Commissioner for oaths.

My father paid good money for his grave. I am not sure if he owns the grave freehold or if he owns a lease on the grave or whatever. I know that the council have to have rules and regulations or every graveyard could end up with Delboy headstones etc.

The council talk about it getting complicated down the road if multiple owners want to have people buried there etc. and that is their excuse for not allowing more than one person inherit a grave by way of title to the ownership. If we can sign forms and have them sworn at this point in time I am sure that similar forms could be signed further down the road if needs be.

I was hoping that someone might know the legal situation on this because it looks as if the Council are taking the easy route for themselves rather than allowing for the wishes of the deceased or the new owners. At the end of the day I jointly own that grave. By not letting me transfer the grave in to my name then they are not allowing me take ownership of something that I own.
 
You've already gotten the legal situation. You can not force them to accept multiple names. End of story.
 
Leo said:
You've already gotten the legal situation. You can not force them to accept multiple names. End of story.
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No, I have not gotten the legal situation. Can you quote the relevant legislation. I have just been told the local Council's bye laws, which I accept, by the way. Everything can be questioned. I am just trying to have a debate about this here on AAM so I am not sure why you are saying "end of story". Do you not want this thread to continue Leo?
 
Grizzly said:
No, I have not gotten the legal situation. Can you quote the relevant legislation. I have just been told the local Council's bye laws, which I accept, by the way. Everything can be questioned. I am just trying to have a debate about this here on AAM so I am not sure why you are saying "end of story". Do you not want this thread to continue Leo?
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There's no need to be like that Grizzly, you came up with a very unusual situation and some of us found it odd, but I've never heard of legislation and I doubt very much anybody else has either. Most of us just gave you ideas on what to do. You want us all to talk like lawyers, well you're in the wrong place. If you want full legal advice you'll have to pay for it. Why don't you ask the solicitor who managed the probate.
 
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Grizzly said:
No, I have not gotten the legal situation.
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But you have really! You said:

Grizzly said:
Can you quote the relevant legislation. I have just been told the local Council's bye laws, which I accept, by the way.
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These bye laws are what specify the legal situation. If you had looked into the ownership of the plot as suggested earlier, you'll most likely have found that you own a right of burial under the terms and conditions of the local authority bye laws. You do not own the land/ plot. If you want more, read The Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act 1948 and Local Government Acts 1925–2001, they're all online.


Grizzly said:
If the will had specifically said that the ownership of the grave was to be transferred into the 4 named people, would the council have to transfer it in to the 4 named people or could they have overridden the wishes of the owner and insisted that it be transferred into one name.
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This is what amused/ bemused most people I think. A few posts, some of them since removed, have addressed this, some more directly than others. How could a wish expressed in a will be legally enforceable? I could state that I wished to be buried in a 400m pyramid on O'Connell Street all I like. But it's not going to happen. A wish is just a wish, it can't set legally binding terms on other parties.
 
What about doing a simple deed of trust that the four of you nominate one to hold in trust for all four, then get the grave transferred into that persons name.
 
Leo said:
How could a wish expressed in a will be legally enforceable? I could state that I wished to be buried in a 400m pyramid on O'Connell Street all I like. But it's not going to happen. A wish is just a wish, it can't set legally binding terms on other parties.
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I suppose then that everything in a will can be challenged as they are only "wishes".
 
Vanilla said:
What about doing a simple deed of trust that the four of you nominate one to hold in trust for all four, then get the grave transferred into that persons name.
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Thanks Vanilla. That might work. The thing is, everything was divided equally and we don't want just one of us owning the grave. We all want to own it. It we leave things as they are then all four of us inherit the grave but there is no legal record of this. It is presently in the name of our deceased father.
 
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