Loans that we cannot repay

Sorry - in response to csirl - I understand the point you are making re the cc - but the reason I want to keep the money we do have, is in case our little man has another asthma attack. One month alone with him cost 500 euro, so I'd prefer to keep that money as back up in case anything like that happens again.

Also, thank you Lilywhite - no one told me about that before! I'll check into it.

Thank you.

"One month alone with him cost 500 euro".

Do you have a [broken link removed]from HSE? It caps your family's drug expenses to €120 per month.

Could you try swapping your 1200 credit card to a 0% rate card? Any money you pay back goes off the balance and not to paying interest.

Does your family qualify for Family Income Supplement. It would be worth a phone call to clarify.

Hi D8Lady,

I do have a DPS card, but the issue that particular month, was having to visit the doctor, 24 hours later he got an awful bad bout and we brought him to Crumlin. The drugs were actually the minimum cost of it all. It was constant trips as he wasn't good at all over about a 10 day period to the GP (who saw him twice and charged us twice at the full rate plus 2 diff types of meds on both occassions) and then the charge from Crumlin who prescibed a total different medication. It actually cost more than 500 euro - I haven't taken into account the fuel costs either. We had to purchase a baby spacer which then led to us being advised by another doc to not bother (when it was too late and we had already bought it and used it) who suggested a different type of inhaler etc, etc. It wasn't actually the drugs that cost the full 500, but doctors and various equipments etc, etc. And he still isn't fully diagnosed, so we could be told something different the next time! Was a very frustrating time!

Am in the process of moving my CC at the moment.

And we apparently do not qualify for the FIS. We have been told that we 'may' qualify for a medical card, but from my research, it doesn't look like we will actually be able to get it.

Hi Coleman, sorry to hear that you're going through all of this. I can relate a bit, we're really overstretched right now and our little one was also just diagnosed with asthma... or sortof diagnosed, like yours, until she's older. I knew something was very wrong on Monday night and we have about 100 euro to feed four of us until the 28th. I knew a GP visit would take half of that plus whatever associated costs came with it. I was freaking out, but ended up talking to the GP who was great and said I could fix her up on pay day. She also said that while we may not qualify for medical cards, that we should qualify for the GP Visit Card, which had been granted to a lot of her upper middle class patients, who suddenly found themselves in financial duress. She gave me the form and sure enough they want a report of debt/outgoings as well as just income and it says that cards will be issued to people in financial difficulty. We're working to consolidate the debt and have worked out payment plans and some of the lenders were happy to supplement my application saying that we needed it. If you're going to MABS, I'm sure they'd be able to do the same for you.

Next month will be a new month for us, with all the debt consolidated and a strict budget in place. We live pretty frugally as is, but this will take a huge weight off. No more phone calls or letters or general household tension. The banks and credit cards were really understanding and I think you'll be surprised. The credit cards knocked off interest rates. One of our smaller loans was willing to take a settlement for 60% of the loan and write off the rest. I really wish I hadn't put things off for so long, as people could not have been nicer and more understanding.

I hope things go well at MABS and start turning around for you! There is hope!!

Deb

Glad to see you now feel there is some light ahead.

Not sure the following would work, but no harm to at least consider "outside the box" solutions....you would need some advice from a solicitor / bankruptcy practicioner - but dont see that anyone else has mentioned it...? even if you reject the following outright, at least you would know that you had considered ALL options even unlikely ones

The killer seems to be the fact that on TOP of the mortgages there are: 8K credit card + the 20K loan to clear business o/d and the "private" 9k+.... these seem to be your husband's debts not yours, or did I misunderstand? He guaranteed these, not you? Are these debts legally speaking nothing to do with you? Similarly, the mortgages - am I right in thinking that you have one each, and are NOT both jointly liable for both of them?

I know you have 3 very young kids to bring up and somone has to stay home to avoid paying full whack on childcare.....

BUT there is a growing trend to at least consider a UK bankruptcy proceeding (rather than the Irish one that takes 12 years)....people give up all their assets but get rid of their debts and start over after a year....not 100% sure does one have to physically go to the UK for a year....but I think it IS legally binding back here in Ireland. Makes more sense for some peole than others - eg someone with someone eg a brother to stay with at first, or someone thinking they might inherit something 10 years from now and dont want the bank to take the lot just as they were about to get on their feet again....

If your husband declared bankruptcy, is it possible that he could give his own property in Cork back to the bank, get his ccd, mortgage and bank debts to disappear, leaving you with your own job, your own mortgage on the rented-out Swords apt and your own rent to pay? If this could be done in say a year and he could live with the credit rating problem and IF you could find a way to care for the kids in that one year, would this pay big dividends compared to working the debt off in bits over many years?

Put it another way - if tomorrow morning he was offered a job in the UK for a year that would pay enough to sort out ALL his debts, would it be worth it for him to go to the UK for part/all of 12 months to get things paid off that quickly?

You say family cant really help with cash money - could they help with time, for help with childcare etc?

Not clear from your email are you yourself liable for all of these debts.

As I say, worth thinking about, even if only to reject it and know you had at least considered everything.

Good luck!

Thanks Cash King and hhsolutions.

Cash King - you are correct in your thinking. I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear. The issue is my husbands debts, guaranteed by him, not me. Yes also you are correct, he has a house and I have an apt. These are separate and were purchased when we were both single people and are not jointly held. And yes, you are also correct, I am not liable for the debt.

We were advised about UK bankruptcy. And yes, we did think about it and discussed it quite a bit. The issue is that my salary would not be able to cover childcare costs for 3 kids and rent/mortgage repayment and food. Neither my family or my in laws live nearby and my job is in Dublin and with family living down the country it's not really an option.

He is not against going to the UK and try to find work etc, etc, but what he is against, is that he would not see the kids or me on a daily/weekly basis. He would find that very hard. He has a brother living in the UK so this conversation has cropped up quite a bit.

Also hh solutions - there is no money to service anything. It doesn't really matter I don't think if unsecured debt can be reorganised or not as there is nothing to pay out. When I spoke to MABS, it seems the course of action to take is to offer BOI 10 euro a month and MBNA 5 euro a month. My husband will not be paying this - I will. Realistically, one of us has to stay at home with the kids for the next few years and even once they get to school, we are talking about 1 adult (my husband) working part time, as again, childcare costs for the kids again is crazy money to pay out.

My husband currently would want to be getting a job that pays the following:

2,300 childcare per month
200 transport cost to work

He would want to be getting this miniumum and then more in order to service anything at all - Call me cynical, but I don't see this happening.

So for the moment, what appears to be happening, is that MABS are going to put this offer to the banks, see what they say - I actually cannot afford to pay any more than the 10 euro and 5 euro per month.

Cash King - you have got me thinking again about UK bankruptcy. I don't know whether to say thank you or not! That's a joke by the way. I honestly don't know what we should do to be honest. Even if the banks agree to the repayment plan, who is to say that later on down the road, that they won't come looking for more. I don't know. Also, what was suggested re my husbands house, was voluntary surrendering it.

The low point of all this came 2 days ago. My husband got another phonecall from MBNA and he spoke to them. He then came into the kitchen where I was feeding the kids and he was holding the baby. I asked him if he would like a cup of tea and he didn't answer. I couldn't see his face as the baby was in the way so I asked him if he could hear me and again I asked if he would like a cup of tea. He put up his hand and waved it away and I went over to him. He had completely broken down and all he could whisper was to leave the baby with him so that the kids couldn't see him like that. What can a wife do to make her husband feel better about himself in that situation?

Hi Coleman, MBNA have been chasing us for 6 months and I can understand exactly how your husband feels....I had to listen to a chap tell me on the phone last week that I should sell our home and pay off the 8k that I owe them....We built a new house last year and held onto the other house because I was pregnant at the time. Both of us are public servants so have a regular but reduced income...also have five children. Crystal balls aside none of us knew what was going to happen and I know that there are days that I go from despair to disbelief that at the age of 45 I am looking in my wallet and wondering where I am going to get the dinner for the next week or if I will have enough diesel to get to work. I have nobody but myself to blame for our debts but I am angry and sad and totally overwhelmed at times.

I just wanted to contact you to say that as I like you have tried to reduce everything down....was it all a dream do you think? Actually having money because you went out and worked....While my husband is now in the HSE he was in construction and retrained as a paramedic. Were we lucky? the banks threw money at us because we had so called great salaries and jobs....I cant pay MBNA...mortgage bounced this month....no savings all gone....fab house and no food in fridge...but I will have a glass of wine on Fri and I will laugh with the kids and go for walks and realise that I am not alone and one day we will get through this and things will get better....so keep your faith, love and support each other and we will all get through this

PS - dont think "surrendering the Cork house " will work. the bank will just sell it and say, "and where is the rest?". Even if they said they agreed to it they could change their mind and come back?

Not so with bankruptcy. You have certainty.

In America its different, you can post the keys back, but here you have to come up with the money or go bankrupt.

Thank you Robanne and Cash King.

I have a question - when a person goes belly up, I thought that that would stay on the record for 6 years. I thought bankruptcy was where a business goes belly up and then that stays on the record for 12 years? Could anyone confirm this for me please, as it's my husband personally going belly up as the business loans and personal loans were personally guaranteed by him. I assumed that he would be affected for 6 years, not 12?

Thanks again.

My own understanding of all this is - although people talk about a business being bankrupt - technically it is individuals who go bankrupt

Examinership/receivership/voluntary or involuntary liquidation/administration - these are different names given to somewhat different situations when a business cannot pay the money it owes - no need to go into the technical distinctions here.

"Bankruptcy" is where an individual (who could also be a shop run by a sole trader) cannot pay in full and cannot renegotiate debts/terms.


Bankruptcy involves filling out paperwork and lodging it with a section of the High Court and paying a fee of 650 euro I think. Not sure what happens if you cant come up with this fee (instalments possible or not?). Might be well worth spending a grand or so to get away finally from say 75000+ in debt and negative Equity. There may be some need to take out small newspaper ads etc. there may be affadavits to be sworn lists to draw up and an Official Assignee to deal with, but you SHOULD NOT still be getting calls from MBNA etc.

check out the link on citizens info website (sorry cant post URLS yet, AAM site design wont allow me) - just google "citizens advice", then search for "bankruptcy" on their site

which takes you to a pdf document on courts.ie

which is your starting point but "is not a legal interpretation" - ie PLEASE talk to a solicitor who has dealt with some bankruptcies before FROM START TO FINISH. I am not such a one myself.

Lots of solicitors offer "a free initial consultation" and may offer to do at least some work "pro bono" - ring around , maybe ask the Law society office can they give tips?

Qs I cant answer that a good solicitor CAN:
eg - will the Sherriff call round to grab what he can? do we have to be there to tell him the furniture/car/TV belongs to YOU/Landlord and NOT husband?

They cant take tools of trade? does this include eg husbands car?

What about things you might have purchased TOGETHER in better times - TV? Cars? any furniture in the Swords apt? etc?

What about gifts he gave you "shortly BEFORE" going bankrupt - eg do they look at everything he might have bought you in the 2 years before bankruptcy? or what other time limit? what if you saved up a little money cos HE paid the gorceries that week/paid for the holiday? what about eg a wedding ring he bought you? etc

But above ALL - are we correct in assuming that you are NOT liable for any of HIS debts (I am pretty sure, but its worth asking)? Solicitor may want to physically SEE who signed which document rather than take your word for it etc

In other words - MABS have told you what you might do to pay it all off - now its time to consider the OTHER option, and get some REAL advice on THAT


What I am saying is that you sound like it MIGHT be the right option for your family as a whole if your husband goes bankrupt rather than struggling on and on to pay everything when there is little real hope of getting out of the debt anyway. I dont know if MABS are allowed/trained to advise people whether they are better off declaring bankruptcy or not. MABS are regarded as good for the free service they provide but there may be an assumption/an internal rule they have, NOT to steer people towards the "B" option, no matter what. I dont know.

You sound all the more suitable for it because from the sounds of it his/your health wont last umpteen years of nasty phone call from MBNA etc. No point saying "if we just eat pasta for 8 years we will fix it" if he will have a breakdown in 9 months - and if that happens, what happens to the prospect of free childcare? and he will STILL owe the full whack to the bank.

Another possibility - (God forbid) he became sick/suicidal/died in next few years - life insurance on mortgage might kick in, but not sure if you as wife would inherit BOTH his assets AND his liabilities? - to get the house in Cork you would then have to pay off the overdraft and credit card? Or would be stuck with them no matter what you wanted? another one to take up with the solicitor. If I am right about this, then thats another strike again in favour of bankruptcy sooner rather than later.

as regards the time limit, actually the PDF file I linked to says "until you are discharged" and gives no formal time limit. I imagine if someone is suspected of salting something away and hiding it, the bankruptcy might drag on forever. I was told in a seminar once it takes 12 years not 6. Sorry cant confirm, ask citizens info bureau? should be free of charge?

Not sure if the bankruptcy exists permanently as a record or not - eg in 25 years, will people know he went bankrupt in the past? again, one for the solicitor.

ONE OTHER POINT - I think you would do well if you face this as a united family with the right attitude. Any secret worries about "what happens if I do this and 3 years from now when kids are at school and I am still not bringing in a cash income, she starts throwing her weight around/giving out to me?" Some couples can have this out in a mature fashion before taking the plunge, but Icant really advise you on that one.

Calmly compare bankruptcy to the alternative; know yourselves and what you can live with, and how much you trust each other; but also do the spreadsheets - where will you be in a year? three years? ten years?

Then choose in a rational manner once you have got the best odds you can.

Good Luck!

The 1st thing i would do is take your 2500 savings and clear the credit card that is 2500.
1 less bill and more available funds to pay towards your other bills.
it's very hard nowadays to make ends meet.
i understand that you have 3 children under 2(i presume you have twins!) but is there someone who could let you move in with them, a family member or someone who needs to get out of financial stress that may let you rent at their place cheaper until you get back on your feet?
can you downgrade your car/cars? smaller engine means less insurance and tax etc.
i hope some of this helps, if your outgoings are higher than the money you take in, you really would need to look at cutting costs at every possible chance.

"he is still living in hope that something will come that will pay a chunk off the debts"

this is very worrying!

if my family were in as bad a situation as you are i would move closer to your place of work and try to illiminate transport costs and if my family needed food i would do anything...deliver currys/takeaway food, deliver leaflets, stock shelves in a supermarket late at night while my kids are asleep, work in a petrol station.

pride doesnt come into it, if it does, he's just being selfish.
keep track of where every penny is going and try to reduce. you will only stress yourself out.

i dont remember seeing a credit union loan down on your outgoings? even if you could clear the other credit card and pay back back the credit union weekly, at least you would know where you are at with that loan aswell and not just paying the minimum balance every month.

Thank you Cash King - you have really given me food for thought on this. It's very difficult to see it when you're the one in it, if you know what I mean. It's easier for an outsider to see it objectively I think. Thank you.

Keytoe - he is looking for work. The day I posted the above statement was a while ago. As I said in posts after that particular one, I mentioned where he is currently looking for ANY work. Also, if we move closer to my work, the rent goes up. Yes the commuting costs go down, but it's all relative. It makes no sense to move closer as the costs will just stay the same. I'm actually managing to pay more than the minimum balance on my cc so that's some good news. Not a lot, but a bit more.

Also, your point re moving in with a family member etc, etc. This isn't possible. Family lives about 200/250 km away from my workplace so this isn't an option.

Also, we have 1 car - a family car - a diesel. The insurance is 290 per annum so I don't think we can go any cheaper to be honest.

And yes, the outgoings are higher than what is coming in, hence looking for advice. It's not a case of just cutting costs at this stage - that's all done. It's a case of trying to sort out this financial mess as quickly and as painlessly as possible.

I reckon if you DO seriously consider the bankruptcy route to keep at least 1000 of your 2500 savings to pay the 650 High court fee + other legal costs for decent advice/newspaper ads. Its A risk I know to incur new expenses, but you would immediately see benefits if you kiss good-bye to making payments on his debts.

If you spent the 2500 on the C cd and THEN decided to go for his bankruptcy and couldnt go ahead cos you dont have the 650, that would be a right mess.

I agree that pride is the wrong thing to go for in this scenario if it is as bad as you say - a future for the kids and a healthy upbringing is worth more than any one mans pride - or put it this way, bringing up kids well IS the right thing to be proud about.

Of course, you cant MAKE him declare bankruptcy if he refuses; you can only say what you will and wont spend YOUR money on in future. Co-operation and frank talk about who will wield what power in years to come is needed; that and trust.

One other problem with the "I will get a well paid job and pay childcare with that" scenario, is that even if it happened, you have THREE kids one of whom has a health problem - every time even one of them is sick the creche will send that child home, someone will have to miss work and a days pay will be lost - and the creche will STILL bill you as normal; this is normal and you wont get away from it. A stay at home parent wont have this problem.

When doing up your "A vs B" spreadsheets, make sure you factor in an allowance for this.

One other thing would be - do you have a joint account or separate bank accounts? If joint, might be an idea to set up a new bank account in your name alone and have your wages paid into that? Shouldnt cost anything. then move it to where you have to?

Might help when proving to Official Assignee in future what money is yours and NOT your husbands. Wont hurt and might help.

I am seriously considering the bankruptcy route now to be honest. Thank God that we do have that 2500 put away! I don't know what we would do otherwise!

And we have already been part of a creche and you are spot on in what you say about that. The amount of times I had to leave work to pick him up and bring him to the doctor and pay for that, and then pay the creche for the month, including the time he was out, and more often than not, his twin was taken out too, as she would develop something from him! It was a vicious circle with that!

And luckily enough we have never had joint accounts. My salary goes straight to my own personal account. Our finances have never mixed and I don't think we have even bought one item of furniture 'together' - it was either me that paid or him.

And pride has gone well by the wayside at this stage.

Thank you again for your help. We are going to discuss our situation tonight.

Coleman - The very best of luck to you and your family - I would seriously consider Cash King's advise. I know it is very difficult with 3 small children if you have to make the move to the UK but in the long run it will pay dividents to your family's future, your marriage and your husband's mental health.

The banks here won't tear a toss one way or another, your debts are only a drop in the ocean to what others owe. They have only themselves to blame for the mess they got people in to. If I were in your shoes, I would be gone in a flash.

Well said there but I think Coleman is saying she is considering an Irish bankruptcy as her job is here and nothing lined up in the UK.

If you can ALL go to the UK though more power to you!

As I say you need some (hopefully free) legal advice to make sure there is no pitfall we have not foreseen before making the big decision, or there is something you forgot to mention - eg does he have a big pension PRSA built up or something that cant normally be touched til age 65, that might get lost in a bankruptcy....but it doesnt sound like it.

Main problem would be not so much the loss of the Cork house but that in future it would be very hard to get a mortgage/big loan in future for HIM, it would all be assessed on your own income?

But for the next ten years in the country that is not going to matter anyway, and you need a solution pronto that allows your CURRENT lifestyle to be preserved/bettered. The last thing you need right now is any new debt.

Yes, pride has nothing to do with this - Bankruptcy is NOT the greatest evil in the world, it is a PERFECTLY LEGAL way of dealing with your debts. Remember that (again, say it three times over slowly when you talk about it - lots of people dont understand it fully first time round). It is a tactic that may or may not be the right one in certain circumstances - but your circumstances sound appropriate. Just like a general wondering does he send the tanks in first or the planes in first. It depends on circumstances, there is no absolute rule

Yes, the Big Boys in the big banks etc dont hesitate to use whatever they can to sort out their problems if the law allows it - hence NAMA! Look at the big bust developers who arranged/are now arranging everything "in the wife's name" as bold as brass - so you do the same if it looks like the best thing to do when you have your solicitors advice.

Good luck again, whichever path you take!

Thanks Marietta and Cash King.

We are actually looking at both options - either the UK or Ireland.

I'm in a position in my work where it would be possible to ask for a transfer to the UK office - I don't know if they would agree to it, but it's worth a shot I believe. That would mean that I would have the possiblity of in say a years time applying for a position then back here at home. Means we would still have the regular income also.

I've looked into courts.ie and what I've found (well,what my husband has an issue with is the following):

One is never discharged from the list - ever, even in death - I believe from my research the same applies to the UK law
Then later on in the document,it confuses me, it states that how to be discharged is the following :
'No bankrupt can be discharged unless there are enough funds to pay:
The costs of the Official Assignee
High Court Fees
The costs of the petitioning creditor
The preferential debts of the bankrupt....

Then later on again it states:

'Discharge after 12 years - this is where the bankruptcy has lasted for 12 years and all of the bankrupts property has been fully sold or disposed of. the court must be satisfied that the bankrupt has disclosed any property acquired since his/her bankruptcy and that it would be reasonable and proper to discharge the debtor from bankruptcy'

Are they then stating that one is discharged after 12 yrs of not acquiring anything, not paying the extra costs etc, etc, or does one actually stay on the list anyway forever?

It's a bit of a minefield.I must have read it 10 times now.

He currently is not coming up with anything for me, other than, to talk to the banks again and see if they will hold off for say 3 yrs. It's been getting heated at times so we've both been walking away and coming back every so often. And it's all the harder to talk as we don't want to do it when the kids can hear us. Our little girl has started talking 'properly' now and lately she's been saying and shouting at us 'money money money' and I don't like it. It's not fair on them.

Anyway, he seems to be against us all going to the UK as he says that will jeopardise my career (I'm due to move into an area that I love with excellent career prospects and progression), but I'm telling him, that yes, this move might impede me for a time, but only a short time, hopefully.....

I'm only seeing the UK one as the way to go....he is fighting it.

Sorry to add another post but we have been discussing and thinking of the following:

What if, we managed to pay the tax bill, therefore all that is outstanding are the personal debts. Write to all the creditors, advise them that my husband is not in a position to pay his debts etc, etc. Therefore, would that not mean that yes, they will continue to harrass him/us for the next few years, but would it not mean that it would be for 6 yrs and not the 12? So if he didn't declare himself bankrupt, just tell the banks the money isn't there, goes to court, court looks at his statement of means which in reality is zero - would the personal debts therefore not be wiped out after 6 years? Instead of declaring bankruptcy, incurring that extra cost, when the reality is, that there is no money? And being able to stay in Ireland?

It's just a thought or am I missing something here? Yes, I know that we would get constant phonecalls/letters/visits from the sherrif - but in fairness, what can we do? Surely we would have to put up with these phonecalls/letters etc, etc, in order to have the benefit of being at home and his credit rating affected for 6 yrs instead of being put on a god knows how long will it end register? Is this possible?

ETA - I'm clutching at straws here.