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This 'the Taoiseach didn't read it' line is getting really tiresome now. Brian Cowen was Minister for Foreign Affairs during the negotiations under the Irish Presidency of the EU that finalised the deal. He was intimately involved in its drafting and he didn't have to sit down and read the treaty cover to cover to know what's in it. Clearly, the mistake he made was actually giving a frank answer to a question. Bet he wished he just lied now.
The McCreevy issue is different. As far as I'm concerned that was a really stupid statement he gave and he obviously completely misjudged the public mood on the whole debate. He certainly looked like a politician "out of touch".
The Green party were neutral but they listed reasons to vote for and against the treaty. The self ammending aspect was one of the reasons against.
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/content/download/15600/197045/file/EU_Reform_Treaty_LR_noreg.pdf
I find the Green Party document a bit strange and contradictory in places. On the one hand it says this treaty and any further significant changes to EU workings must be put to Irish voters who have the final say and then it says the treaty would be self-amending. Think someone should have spent more time reconciling the cases for and against the treaty before they published that document.
I find the Green Party document a bit strange and contradictory in places. On the one hand it says this treaty and any further significant changes to EU workings must be put to Irish voters who have the final say and then it says the treaty would be self-amending. Think someone should have spent more time reconciling the cases for and against the treaty before they published that document.
I agree and I don't think the treaty is self ammending but this is from a party that is in Government and people are saying there shouldn't have been a referendum as elected politicians are more than capable of deciding for us on such compilcated matters. I think our politicians have shown they are not any more capable than the people posting here on making an informed decision. The Czech version of the Financial Times did a survey in the Czech Republic recently as well and found that elected politicans generally had no idea what they were voting on. I reckon it would be the same across Europe.
I think a general consusus is emerging. After close analysis and debate among all on here it is clear that a no vote was the most rational decision to make based on the actual treaty.
I haven't forgotten any principles of democracy (although clearly television has me down as some kind of fascist) and I certainly wouldn't agree there's a consensus here to support the No vote. It's clear that this debate will rage on and on over the months ahead and into next year and right now I too am sick of debating Lisbon. I know I'll be playing an active part in any future Yes campaign but right now it's time for a break. I'm sure television will not want to leave it just yet though
I don't agree. From my point of view, I'm just sick of this debate. How can you reason with people who "know more" about Corporation tax than ISME, abortion than the Catholic church and Irish Neutrality than the Irish government ?
The NO side are in for a tough lesson on European realpolitik.
That's me done in this thread.
With the possible exception of the fishing angle which is new - can anyone name a single country in the world that become rich from fishing? Thought not, let's knock that one on the head right now.
if we really had a choice I would probably vote No.
i see the government is setting up a special commission to try to find out why the people voted no...
I can see the Gov's angle now. It will focus on the recent job losses, the recession, the fact that we are bad Europeans and people won't buy anything from us or set up here. Basically scare us into fearing for our jobs - that should do it - then have another vote and you will get a YES.
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