"Let's demolish the four great myths of housing"- Conor Skehan

I've spent many years renting and as an owner. My views are coloured by my experiences in both, but I understand I'm just one person, so my experiences are not representative of a national issue.

Leo

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Messages12,481
deanpark said:
Not feasible to rent e.g. with kids/ schools and not a great scene generally for renters with the prevailing attitude of society looking down on renters.
Why isn't it feasible to rent with kids? I know many people who do it very successfully. If you believe society looks down on renters it may be your own prejudices clouding that judgement.

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Leo

Re above - I'm curious as to how your experiences are not representative of a national issue but you are happy to infer that I'm prejudiced due to society's attitude to renters. It's a tad inconsistent.
 
Re above - I'm curious as to how your experiences are not representative of a national issue but you are happy to infer that I'm prejudiced due to society's attitude to renters. It's a tad inconsistent.
Because I'm just one person, one person can never be fully representative of a population.

You claimed there was a
prevailing attitude of society looking down on renters.
I questioned that, as I don't believe that is the prevailing attitude. You haven't provided any evidence that such an attitude exists.

As per the last census, 30% of dwellings were rented and that number has continued to rise. Are you really looking down on them all? Even the ones renting high-end houses in Ballsbridge paying 4-5k a month? Do you think society overall would consider them less fortunate than a home owner in a socially deprived, high-crime area?
 
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2 things jump out at me on renting

As an employer, I'm seeing immigrants in their 30's with kids having to make a big decision, they now need a home, not a flat share. They can't afford to buy but also can't necessarily afford to rent a home. Hence, a number of them are making the decision to return home. Couple of my team have made that decision in recent weeks and they are young, reasonably well paid professionals. That's a loss to us as a society

I'm now in my "forever" home, mortgage will be paid a month after my 58th birthday at the latest. From then on, the house is ours. However is due consideration being given to people renting in the private sector who will reach retirement age?. How will they then afford a rent which their pension may not cover. Will they need HAP payments (or an equivalent) to cover their rental. ? If so, this would be a draw on state resources. Is there a potential time-bomb ticking out there?
 
Was there not an ancient Greek city that used to elect one member of the town to take decisions on behalf of the whole community?
 

1. Of the 18,000 non-first-time buyers, what is the proportion who are downsizing and tipping the saving to their families to give them a start ?
I can see an electoral case for the 18,00 too be given *some* say in the housing crisis debate. But I doubt if many of them would be so lacking in social/national perspective as to consider that greater consideration in policy be given to their category than to the first-time buyers.

2. The current figures for Ireland are skewed in favour of renting due to unaffordability and/or unavailability of homes in the last 20+ years. After the bust there was availability but few people could afford to buy them.

3. I take BB's point about the wider population needing to educate themselves - with help from responsible professionals - on non-property investments. Absolutely. But even if we were all proficient in such investments, I think Irish people - and many other EU citizens too - would want to first pay off the mortgage before going into investments seriously. Why? Because most of us want fixity in our everyday physical lives for conveniece; for avoiding the emotional upheavals accompanying moving house; and not least for relational reasons when children have to change schools and friends, parents lose the support of neighbours and nearby friends/family. Having the mortgage paid doesn't entirely eliminate the risk of losing the house but it's as good as one can do without winning a lotto. So investment learning is a thing people only learn when they have to liquidate propert assets for many Irish people.

4. I'd love to see a breakdown in the 200,000 vacant homes figure.
How many are holiday homes in provincial Ireland ?
How many are derelict or in bad repair or disfunctional in a variety of ways ?
How many are within a drive to employment centres ?
How many are within a drive from people in rent pressure zones ?
 
As per the last census, 30% of dwellings were rented

We are clearly talking about the private rented sector (not social housing) and that number is only 20%.

17,000 landlords have left the business in the last three years while the number of households in rental accommodation continues to steadily increase.

Again, wrong. There were 312k private rented tenancies in Q1 2019 but only 298k private rented tenancies in Q4 2020. So it's falling about 8k a year.

Only 5% of tenants in RPZ zones reported a somewhat or very negative relationship with their landlord, and only 6% reported they felt very insecure, those with a poor understanding of their rights were far more likely to feel insecure.

Yes but the rental demographic is different and so will the baseline for anxiety. When I was a private renter aged 25 my landlord sold up and gave me three weeks to move out. It was a pain but I managed it. At my age with kids in a nearby school it would be a complete disaster.

The best years of my life were spent renting but as soon as I had kids and a stable career in one place I sought to buy. I suspect you did too
 
We are clearly talking about the private rented sector (not social housing) and that number is only 20%.

The 30% was quoted in response to Deanpark's comment, it's valid in that context.

Again, wrong. There were 312k private rented tenancies in Q1 2019 but only 298k private rented tenancies in Q4 2020. So it's falling about 8k a year.
Are you confusing number of landlords with number of registered tenancies there? The RTB reported a drop of under 4k registered landlords over the course of 2020.

The RTB's report on the affects of the RPZ measures did assess demographics, but didn't call out any correlation between age and security. Youger people do tend to be more carefree and less considerate of the future though.

The best years of my life were spent renting but as soon as I had kids and a stable career in one place I sought to buy. I suspect you did too
The majority still do, but that isn't one of the myths being addressed. I wasn't trying to claim otherwise, I was countering the suggestions that renting is unfeasible for families or that everyone in rented accommodation is in constant fear of being kicked out or consider themselves a second class citizens.
 
Are you confusing number of landlords with number of registered tenancies there?
No. The RTB says "Number of Private Rented tenancies" in both releases. Number of landlords is cited elsewhere. Click through and have a look..

Your claim that "the number of households in rental accommodation continues to steadily increase" is just wrong.
 

~4k drop in number of landlords over 2020

I was using CSO data for number of households, but that only covers to the last census. There was indeed a drop in the number of registered tenancies last year.
 
I think you deleted my comment(s) Leo so it's difficult to cross reference my input.
 
I wonder is that a distortion caused by government rent limits.
If they reduce the rental price they may not be able to increase it again easily and this affects the asset value of the property.
I think the State puts a floor in the rental market in the form of HAPS. When
There was indeed a drop in the number of registered tenancies last year.
It would be interesting to see how many of those were people moving "back home" due to remote working. I've certainly heard of a number of young people moving back to family homes in rural locations to work remotely in Dublin based jobs.

I doubt there were many families leaving rental accommodation who weren't moving to a purchased home.
 
A lot of the shortage in housing construction is got to do with Labour shortages, I know there has been a good debate on more industrialization of construction methods with factory built components which is valid. The reality is that could take a long time to establish and is "blue sky" stuff rather immediately deliverable . If we need more construction workers we should prioritize that for migration visas. Currently cOvid aside it is too easy to get a work permit to work in Ireland. Therefore we need to corall the work permit system into areas of critical shortages like construction, health and hospitality. If it is too easy to get some work permit well then migrants will naturally choose more desirable jobs and the critical shortage areas will remain short of workers.
 
Good point, it will be interesting to see how the numbers move over the next couple of years.
 
Migrants fill the skills shortages in the ITC sector. If we didn't have the immigrants the jobs wouldn't be here.
They also fill roles in the health service, especially in areas like care assistants and nursing. Again, they are roles which Irish people don't want to do or don't have the skills to do.
 
They also fill roles in the health service, especially in areas like care assistants and nursing. Again, they are roles which Irish people don't want to do or don't have the skills to do.
What? Are you saying qualified nurses wouldn't want to apply for bricklayer visas if that's all they could get?
 
What? Are you saying qualified nurses wouldn't want to apply for bricklayer visas if that's all they could get?
Our nurses bugger off because to countries where they pay less income tax (you know, that tax that's raised to pay them).
Brick laying is more skilful, harder and more dangerous so I doubt they'd try it.
 
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